Neverending
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Post by Neverending on Feb 26, 2019 23:01:23 GMT -5
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PG Cooper
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Post by PG Cooper on Mar 8, 2019 22:01:36 GMT -5
With any luck, new video essay drops tomorrow afternoon.
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Post by Neverending on Mar 9, 2019 4:46:11 GMT -5
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PG Cooper
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Post by PG Cooper on Mar 9, 2019 13:15:10 GMT -5
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Post by Neverending on Mar 10, 2019 3:04:23 GMT -5
Dang, Coop. Dissing Dracula’s boy Tarantino? How defiant.
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PG Cooper
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Post by PG Cooper on Mar 10, 2019 8:11:58 GMT -5
Dang, Coop. Dissing Dracula’s boy Tarantino? How defiant. I said "with respect" and that makes everything I say okay.
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Dracula
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Post by Dracula on Mar 10, 2019 14:36:30 GMT -5
With respect, I think it's kind of an unfair comparison between two valid approaches to a similar subject matter.
A motif within Inglourious Basterds is that it depicts the various characters through the lens of each country's cinematic myths about themselves: the Americans as vengeful country boys, the British as a dutiful gentry, the Frech as sophisticated saboteurs, and yes the Germans as a group of scary and efficient murderers. A movie which is that interested in cinematic iconography is not going to be able to simply ignore the traditional image of the Nazi both from their propaganda and from elsewhere.
However, Tarantino does a lot to subvert that German self-image. You acknowledge that Hitler is treated as an absolute idiot in the movie, which seems like more than the small footnote you make it out to be, and while Hans Landa is certainly good at what he does and puts forward the menacing image that the SS wanted to put forward the film does ultimately make it clear that he's not any better than the rest of them given how he's defeated and branded at the end. Also given that the movie rather pointedly rebukes literal Nazi propoganda via the senseless "Nation's Pride" film that's at its center I would hardly accuse the film of simply falling in with Riefenstahl's vision of Nazism.
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Post by PG Cooper on Mar 10, 2019 17:49:35 GMT -5
With respect, I think it's kind of an unfair comparison between two valid approaches to a similar subject matter. A motif within Inglourious Basterds is that it depicts the various characters through the lens of each country's cinematic myths about themselves: the Americans as vengeful country boys, the British as a dutiful gentry, the Frech as sophisticated saboteurs, and yes the Germans as a group of scary and efficient murderers. A movie which is that interested in cinematic iconography is not going to be able to simply ignore the traditional image of the Nazi both from their propaganda and from elsewhere. Fair points. In truth, part of why I chose Basterds as a comparison is because it's one of the few examples I could think that uses a comparable demeaning gaze when it comes to depicting Nazis, particularly in regards to the film's portrait of Hitler. But for all the ways in which Tarantino does subvert and mock Nazism, I do think the film's love of Hans Landa is worth discussing, especially given how many audience members took to him more than anything else in the film. That's not to say I think that's a flaw on the film's part necessarily, in fact it might simply be more a flaw with audiences, but I think the distinction between how Spielberg and Tarantino portray their Nazi villains is one worth keeping in mind. It's not so much that Tarantino falls in with Nazi propaganda, but that the language he uses ultimately reaffirms aspects of Nazi strength and authority, the very myths at the basis of their appeal. I should probably also mention that I love Inglourious Basterds. I think the film does some brilliant stuff in regards to reclaiming cinema from Nazis and using it against them. Most of those observations were cut from the video simply because it didn't quite fit with the overall thesis I was working on, but I will concede that there is a gap in the video in this regard. Thanks for the feedback.
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Post by Dracula on Mar 10, 2019 18:17:06 GMT -5
but I think the distinction between how Spielberg and Tarantino portray their Nazi villains is one worth keeping in mind. It's not so much that Tarantino falls in with Nazi propaganda, but that the language he uses ultimately reaffirms aspects of Nazi strength and authority, the very myths at the basis of their appeal. I mean, awful as Nazis were I don't think it's entirely a lie to suggest that they had quite a bit of strength and authority, they damn near took over Europe and were nothing if not efficient murderers, I don't exactly think that acknowledging that in his villain was entirely out of line. The more interesting comparison to Landa might be less to any of the Nazis in Indiana Jones and more to Amon Göth from Schindler's list, who could certainly be said to have quite a bit of strength and authority and like Landa uses it to rather horrifying ends. The difference is that there isn't even a hint of parody in that guy, he's just bluntly disgusting. Basterds is a movie that's at something of a middle point between the child-friendly Republic serial tribute of Indiana Jones and the Historical reality of Schindler's List, so it kind of follows that its villain would retain aspects of both approaches, he's kind of silly like the Indian Jones bad guys ("that's a bingo") but unlike them you see him personally massacring families and strangling people.
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PG Cooper
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Post by PG Cooper on Mar 10, 2019 18:32:09 GMT -5
but I think the distinction between how Spielberg and Tarantino portray their Nazi villains is one worth keeping in mind. It's not so much that Tarantino falls in with Nazi propaganda, but that the language he uses ultimately reaffirms aspects of Nazi strength and authority, the very myths at the basis of their appeal. I mean, awful as Nazis were I don't think it's entirely a lie to suggest that they had quite a bit of strength and authority, they damn near took over Europe and were nothing if not efficient murderers, I don't exactly think that acknowledging that in his villain was entirely out of line. True, but I still feel the movie's at points reverent awe of Landa's skill is the sort of celebration that makes him seem cool and appealing. Not saying the film or Tarantino is endorsing Nazism, just that Spielberg's more outright mockery is more effective in terms of deglamourizing Nazism. This is an interesting point. I didn't consider putting these two in conversation with each other but maybe I should have. Yeah, I understand the line Basterds has to walk. I think you could even argue Basterds is more effective than the Indiana Jones movies since Tarantino can both mock the Nazis while also acknowledging their horrific evils more pointedly than Spielberg can with Indy. Then again, I guess you could argue sort of the opposite. That in sitting between the dismissive mockery of Indiana Jones and the harsh historical reality of Schindler's List, Basterds is ultimately less effective than either. Maybe. Not sure I totally subscribe to either of these perspectives but it's interesting food for thought.
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Post by Dracula on Mar 10, 2019 18:51:14 GMT -5
I mean, awful as Nazis were I don't think it's entirely a lie to suggest that they had quite a bit of strength and authority, they damn near took over Europe and were nothing if not efficient murderers, I don't exactly think that acknowledging that in his villain was entirely out of line. True, but I still feel the movie's at points reverent awe of Landa's skill is the sort of celebration that makes him seem cool and appealing. Not saying the film or Tarantino is endorsing Nazism, just that Spielberg's more outright mockery is more effective in terms of deglamourizing Nazism. Part of the problem with all of this is that Inglourious Basterds was made in 2009, which was before the deglamorization of Nazis was seen as something that needed to be a major cultural priority. I do think he wanted to make a statement about Naziism in his own Tarantino-ey way, but I don't think that he was trying to create counter-propaganda that would make the message super clear to teenagers.
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Post by Neverending on Mar 24, 2019 15:02:57 GMT -5
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PG Cooper
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Post by PG Cooper on Mar 25, 2019 14:30:43 GMT -5
True, but I still feel the movie's at points reverent awe of Landa's skill is the sort of celebration that makes him seem cool and appealing. Not saying the film or Tarantino is endorsing Nazism, just that Spielberg's more outright mockery is more effective in terms of deglamourizing Nazism. Part of the problem with all of this is that Inglourious Basterds was made in 2009, which was before the deglamorization of Nazis was seen as something that needed to be a major cultural priority. I do think he wanted to make a statement about Naziism in his own Tarantino-ey way, but I don't think that he was trying to create counter-propaganda that would make the message super clear to teenagers. Good point. All I've seen is Tommy, so I'll place this in the "watch later" pile. New video should be done by the end of the week. Went by really fast.
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Post by PG Cooper on Mar 26, 2019 12:33:39 GMT -5
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Post by SnoBorderZero on Mar 26, 2019 12:42:10 GMT -5
One of the best ever.
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Post by thebtskink on Mar 26, 2019 15:35:02 GMT -5
Nice!
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Post by Neverending on Mar 26, 2019 16:10:19 GMT -5
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Post by PG Cooper on Mar 26, 2019 21:14:48 GMT -5
Thanks guys. So I'm 90% sure this means "the opening to OUATITW is one of the best ever", but I'm choosing to interpret it as "this video essay is one of the best ever".
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thebtskink
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Post by thebtskink on Mar 26, 2019 21:25:31 GMT -5
It's my favorite of yours so far.
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Post by PG Cooper on Mar 26, 2019 22:07:54 GMT -5
It's my favorite of yours so far. That means a lot. Thank you.
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Post by Doomsday on Mar 26, 2019 22:44:32 GMT -5
Agreed, I even sent it to a few film industry friends of mine. Lots of great points made that I never considered and I’ve seen OUATITW many, many times.
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Post by Neverending on Mar 26, 2019 22:47:06 GMT -5
Agreed, I even sent it to a few film industry friends of mine. Lots of great points made that I never considered and I’ve seen OUATITW many, many times.
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PG Cooper
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Post by PG Cooper on Mar 27, 2019 9:23:52 GMT -5
Agreed, I even sent it to a few film industry friends of mine. Lots of great points made that I never considered and I’ve seen OUATITW many, many times. Wow. I'd be curious to hear any thoughts they have.
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Post by Neverending on Apr 1, 2019 16:38:52 GMT -5
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Post by Neverending on Apr 2, 2019 13:39:22 GMT -5
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