Wyldstaar
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Post by Wyldstaar on Nov 13, 2019 7:51:23 GMT -5
Alright, so it looks like what Greedo is saying there is "ma klounkee," which has come up previously in the series in a scene in TPM where Sebulba says “Neek me chawa, wermo, mo killee ma klounkee,” which is subtitled as “Next time we race, boy, it will be the end of you.” So, it's an extra shot of Greedo saying "I'll end you." I guess Lucas thought that Han needed verbal confirmation he was in danger beyond being shot at first. One would think that having a deadly weapon pointed directly at Han would be enough, and for fifteen years it was.
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Doomsday
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Post by Doomsday on Nov 18, 2019 16:50:25 GMT -5
Alright, so it looks like what Greedo is saying there is "ma klounkee," which has come up previously in the series in a scene in TPM where Sebulba says “Neek me chawa, wermo, mo killee ma klounkee,” which is subtitled as “Next time we race, boy, it will be the end of you.” So, it's an extra shot of Greedo saying "I'll end you." I guess Lucas thought that Han needed verbal confirmation he was in danger beyond being shot at first.
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SnoBorderZero
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Post by SnoBorderZero on Dec 15, 2019 16:26:44 GMT -5
So I'm rewatching all of the Star Wars films before Episode IX (including the spin-off movies) and completed the original trilogy the other day. I've always held that Empire Strikes Back is the best of the bunch, and I feel good about that still. It's much more polished, is lit better, the performances are stronger, introduces Yoda, expands on the mythology/universe very well, and it has perhaps the most iconic moment of the entire series with Luke's battle with Vader at Cloud City and the reveal of Vader being his father. But I will say, A New Hope has more of these iconic moments/shots, and also works as a standalone film, which Empire does not. Luke watching the suns of Tatooine, Luke's aunt and uncle being killed, the Death Star assault, Obi-Wan engaging Vader, first introductions to hyper speed, the Force, everything. The franchise certainly overcomplicates a lot, but A New Hope and Empire Strikes Back do good jobs throughout of explaining why things are happening the way they are, a nice change from the complete verbal garbage that the prequels constantly spit out. So... Empire over A New Hope... slightly? Both are masterpieces still. Return of the Jedi... oh boy, I want to remember it like I did at age 7, but it is a major, major step down from the first two films. First off, none of the actions they take make a lot of sense. The plan to rescue Han Solo from Jabba's palace is the most convoluted scheme ever, only for all of them to get imprisoned. Why not have Luke go train with Yoda until he's nearly complete in becoming a true Jedi, and then go rescue Han? It's not like Han is going anywhere. Why send the droids there at all if Luke is already on his way? Jabba's takes so damn long for no reason. Let it be twenty minutes and move the fuck on. Also, Boba Fett and Yoda's deaths are highly disappointing, especially Yoda's. Another problem is that while the idea of Luke attempting to turn Vader good is an intriguing one, it's not handled well. I don't know if Richard Marquand just was a mediocre director or if George Lucas was in his ear too much (probably a combination of both), but the dramatic beats of Return of the Jedi are there but half-assed. Luke should hold so much resentment towards Vader, why should he care about turning him around? They had one interaction in Cloud City and that's all. Maybe they should've had them "communicate" with the Force like Rey and Kylo do in Last Jedi so at least we have more of a groundwork to go on for why Luke would want to turn Vader and why Vader ultimately does turn. The scenes between Luke, Vader, and the Emperor are far and away the best in the film, but you can't help but feel like these don't land with as much impact as they should either. Wonderful set design, great performances, but it also never feels like the ultimate dramatic standoff it should be either. Hamill is not a great actor and does his worst work here in comparison to the other films, which doesn't help. It just doesn't make a lot of sense as to why Vader betrays the Emperor. Doesn't feel earned. Also, the Second Death Star assault is not very interesting. It's a far lesser retread of the spectacular one in A New Hope. Endor as a final set piece is fun but ultimately disappointing as well. It's not so much that Return of the Jedi is bad, because it's a lot of fun, but it's easy to pick on. If the first two are 10s, Return is a 7. No wonder I don't remember it scene by scene like I do New Hope and Empire. There's my rambling thoughts. Onto the prequels where I'll hate my life and Neverending will tell me Attack of the Clones is underrated.
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Neverending
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Post by Neverending on Dec 15, 2019 16:59:29 GMT -5
So I'm rewatching all of the Star Wars films before Episode IX (including the spin-off movies) and completed the original trilogy the other day. I've always held that Empire Strikes Back is the best of the bunch, and I feel good about that still. It's much more polished, is lit better, the performances are stronger, introduces Yoda, expands on the mythology/universe very well, and it has perhaps the most iconic moment of the entire series with Luke's battle with Vader at Cloud City and the reveal of Vader being his father. But I will say, A New Hope has more of these iconic moments/shots, and also works as a standalone film, which Empire does not. Luke watching the suns of Tatooine, Luke's aunt and uncle being killed, the Death Star assault, Obi-Wan engaging Vader, first introductions to hyper speed, the Force, everything. The franchise certainly overcomplicates a lot, but A New Hope and Empire Strikes Back do good jobs throughout of explaining why things are happening the way they are, a nice change from the complete verbal garbage that the prequels constantly spit out. So... Empire over A New Hope... slightly? Both are masterpieces still. Return of the Jedi... oh boy, I want to remember it like I did at age 7, but it is a major, major step down from the first two films. First off, none of the actions they take make a lot of sense. The plan to rescue Han Solo from Jabba's palace is the most convoluted scheme ever, only for all of them to get imprisoned. Why not have Luke go train with Yoda until he's nearly complete in becoming a true Jedi, and then go rescue Han? It's not like Han is going anywhere. Why send the droids there at all if Luke is already on his way? Jabba's takes so damn long for no reason. Let it be twenty minutes and move the fuck on. Also, Boba Fett and Yoda's deaths are highly disappointing, especially Yoda's. Another problem is that while the idea of Luke attempting to turn Vader good is an intriguing one, it's not handled well. I don't know if Richard Marquand just was a mediocre director or if George Lucas was in his ear too much (probably a combination of both), but the dramatic beats of Return of the Jedi are there but half-assed. Luke should hold so much resentment towards Vader, why should he care about turning him around? They had one interaction in Cloud City and that's all. Maybe they should've had them "communicate" with the Force like Rey and Kylo do in Last Jedi so at least we have more of a groundwork to go on for why Luke would want to turn Vader and why Vader ultimately does turn. The scenes between Luke, Vader, and the Emperor are far and away the best in the film, but you can't help but feel like these don't land with as much impact as they should either. Wonderful set design, great performances, but it also never feels like the ultimate dramatic standoff it should be either. Hamill is not a great actor and does his worst work here in comparison to the other films, which doesn't help. It just doesn't make a lot of sense as to why Vader betrays the Emperor. Doesn't feel earned. Also, the Second Death Star assault is not very interesting. It's a far lesser retread of the spectacular one in A New Hope. Endor as a final set piece is fun but ultimately disappointing as well. It's not so much that Return of the Jedi is bad, because it's a lot of fun, but it's easy to pick on. If the first two are 10s, Return is a 7. No wonder I don't remember it scene by scene like I do New Hope and Empire. There's my rambling thoughts. Onto the prequels where I'll hate my life and Neverending will tell me Attack of the Clones is underrated. “New Hope” (or Star Wars if you’re not an asshole) is probably technically the best one. As you said. It’s iconic and works as a stand-alone. But I appreciate Empire more on a filmmaking level. Star Wars was definitely my favorite one... until maybe college. I could see what Kershner brought to the table and also acknowledge that Star Wars was saved in Post-Production.
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SnoBorderZero
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Post by SnoBorderZero on Dec 15, 2019 17:24:33 GMT -5
Another thing about Return of the Jedi is that it just ends with the Ewok party. It's not a very satisfying conclusion. We don't even have dialogue between all of the main characters, reminiscing on their journey, saying unspoken things, whatever. This works in A New Hope with the medal ceremony, but doesn't work at all with Return of the Jedi. I don't want them to engage in bureaucratic discussions of what comes next with the fall of the Empire, but we can't even have Luke and Han have a moment together?
Also the musical number in Jabba's palace...unforgivable.
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Neverending
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Post by Neverending on Dec 15, 2019 17:53:47 GMT -5
Another thing about Return of the Jedi is that it just ends with the Ewok party. It's not a very satisfying conclusion. We don't even have dialogue between all of the main characters, reminiscing on their journey, saying unspoken things, whatever. This works in A New Hope with the medal ceremony, but doesn't work at all with Return of the Jedi. I don't want them to engage in bureaucratic discussions of what comes next with the fall of the Empire, but we can't even have Luke and Han have a moment together? Also the musical number in Jabba's palace...unforgivable. The Teddy Bear Party, as Harrison Ford described it.
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Wyldstaar
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Post by Wyldstaar on Dec 15, 2019 18:10:49 GMT -5
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SnoBorderZero
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Post by SnoBorderZero on Dec 15, 2019 19:00:21 GMT -5
This was awesome, thanks for sharing it.
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PhantomKnight
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Post by PhantomKnight on Dec 15, 2019 19:50:11 GMT -5
But I will say, A New Hope has more of these iconic moments/shots, and also works as a standalone film, which Empire does not. That's actually why I personally prefer A New Hope myself. Also, I think I prefer the more adventurous tone that A New Hope has.
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SnoBorderZero
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Post by SnoBorderZero on Dec 15, 2019 22:18:54 GMT -5
True, and it's always fun to see the team/quest assembling before our eyes. It's probably why I think Fellowship of the Ring is the best of the Lord of the Rings trilogy as well.
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Neverending
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Post by Neverending on Dec 15, 2019 22:57:09 GMT -5
True, and it's always fun to see the team/quest assembling before our eyes. It's probably why I think Fellowship of the Ring is the best of the Lord of the Rings trilogy as well. That's why X-Men (2000) is your favorite X-Men. You and your love for 2000's superhero movies. Get a room!
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SnoBorderZero
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Post by SnoBorderZero on Dec 15, 2019 23:41:01 GMT -5
True, and it's always fun to see the team/quest assembling before our eyes. It's probably why I think Fellowship of the Ring is the best of the Lord of the Rings trilogy as well. That's why X-Men (2000) is your favorite X-Men. You and your love for 2000's superhero movies. Get a room! "All these superhero movies today and their damn crossovers. In the 2000s, you didn't have crossovers. Your X-Men were with other X-Men, your Spider-Man fought the Green Goblin (twice) and didn't need help from Captain America to do it."
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Neverending
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Post by Neverending on Aug 3, 2020 16:21:57 GMT -5
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IanTheCool
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Post by IanTheCool on Aug 9, 2020 10:35:57 GMT -5
The Empire Strikes Back!
Continuing with my Star Wars rewatch, and I will just say that I did like this one better than Attack of the Clones. Hot take I know.
Highlights: - This movie looks gorgeous. The contracts of Hoth, Dagobah, the Asteroid field, etc. all weaves into this incredible looking fabric of film.
- This is Yoda at his best. It blends funny, quirky Yoda with wise Yoda in a balance the new films just couldn't capture. He adds a lot to this movie.
- This is probably John Williams' best and most diverse score.
- The showdown between Luke and Darth Vader is iconic and amazing. Vader fights with such power and Luke does his best to keep up. I love the way Vader taunts him the entire time, and then they both first light up their lightsabers really gets the heart racing.
- All the main characters are great here. Luke really feels like a real person, Han and Leia have some great interactions, and Chewie and the droids have tons of fun moments as well. Even small details like Artoo spitting out swamp water or Chewie putting Threepio's head on backwards really endears them to us.
- Those At-At's are badass.
- The snowspeeders are also great. The way they fly across that icescape looks amazing.
- I love the asteroid field stuff. The space slug, though it doesn't make a ton of sense, is a fun little splash of adventure and world-building.Another great world-building piece are the bounty hunters. Boba Fett steals the show here, obviously, but I always got excited about that recruitment scene.
- We really get a scenes of the force in this movie, mostly through the Dagobah scenes, but also with ideas like Luke reaching out to Leia, Ben showing up as a ghost, etc. The Darth Vader scene in the cave is a really shocking piece of introspection which is unexpected in a movie like this, and Yoda pulling out the X-Wing is also quite powerful.
Downfalls: - I'm really trying to look at both sides, so these are going to be really nitpicky. I can say that one thing that never sat right with me is the time discrepancy. So Luke was training in Dagobah during the same time period that the Falcon was being chased? I know there are ways to make sense and that they could have been stuck in that asteroid field for days, not to mention traveling to Bespin without hyperdrive, but its still odd.
- Han saying "Then I'll see you in hell!" Seems very un-Star-Wars-like and also rather harsh and uncalled for.
- Um... I don't know what else. I love this movie. I suppose there is something to be said about the way the ending feels unfinished in a way.
Special Edition Alert! - Empire seems to be the least defiled by changes than the rest of the films, but there are still some things that bug me. I will say that there is quite a bit that blend in fairly well. For example, I can't remember what parts of the Wampa scene are added and what were there.
- Changing the Emperor scene to Ian McDiarmand, and changing Boba Fett's voice to the guy from the prequels, are both awful decisions. Not only does iit remind us of the lesser films of the series, but its also quite disrespectful to the original actors.
- I would like to mention the bad decision to change Vader's final line in the film, but I will just direct you to this very famous youtube personality who already did a brilliant job with it. link
Current Re-ranking List: 1. The Empire Strikes Back 2. Attack of the Clones
Current Dismemberment tally: 3
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Wyldstaar
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Post by Wyldstaar on Aug 9, 2020 11:25:08 GMT -5
Downfalls: - I'm really trying to look at both sides, so these are going to be really nitpicky. I can say that one thing that never sat right with me is the time discrepancy. So Luke was training in Dagobah during the same time period that the Falcon was being chased? I know there are ways to make sense and that they could have been stuck in that asteroid field for days, not to mention traveling to Bespin without hyperdrive, but its still odd. I've always just assumed that the trip to Bespin took a long time. Strictly speaking, it should have taken years. Once the Star Wars RPG from West End Games was released, they inserted a retcon that most hyper-capable ships have a back-up hyperdrive that's nowhere near as fast as the standard version, but will allow a ship to slowly limp to their destination without growing old in the process. The various West End Games sourcebooks were issued to Timothy Zahn and the other Star Wars novel authors, and details like that are all over the expanded universe stuff.
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IanTheCool
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Post by IanTheCool on Aug 9, 2020 11:31:07 GMT -5
Downfalls: - I'm really trying to look at both sides, so these are going to be really nitpicky. I can say that one thing that never sat right with me is the time discrepancy. So Luke was training in Dagobah during the same time period that the Falcon was being chased? I know there are ways to make sense and that they could have been stuck in that asteroid field for days, not to mention traveling to Bespin without hyperdrive, but its still odd. I've always just assumed that the trip to Bespin took a long time. Strictly speaking, it should have taken years. Once the Star Wars RPG from West End Games was released, they inserted a retcon that most hyper-capable ships have a back-up hyperdrive that's nowhere near as fast as the standard version, but will allow a ship to slowly limp to their destination without growing old in the process. The various West End Games sourcebooks were issued to Timothy Zahn and the other Star Wars novel authors, and details like that are all over the expanded universe stuff. Yeah, thats what I assumed too. Still jarring though.
On a side note, I attempted the Star Wars EU this summer. Nope.
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Neverending
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Post by Neverending on Aug 9, 2020 11:36:38 GMT -5
I never got the sense any of this took place over the course of years. The whole movie seems to take place in a few days. I agree with IanTheCool. It’s a bit of a flaw because it never seems like Luke got proper training as a Jedi. Even in Return of the Jedi, which presumably does take place a few years after Empire, Luke goes back to complete his training. What the fuck was he doing in between both movies? Luke’s training was definitely glossed over in the trilogy.
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Neverending
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Post by Neverending on Aug 9, 2020 11:37:16 GMT -5
I attempted the Star Wars EU this summer. Nope Why?
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Wyldstaar
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Post by Wyldstaar on Aug 9, 2020 11:43:43 GMT -5
I've always just assumed that the trip to Bespin took a long time. Strictly speaking, it should have taken years. Once the Star Wars RPG from West End Games was released, they inserted a retcon that most hyper-capable ships have a back-up hyperdrive that's nowhere near as fast as the standard version, but will allow a ship to slowly limp to their destination without growing old in the process. The various West End Games sourcebooks were issued to Timothy Zahn and the other Star Wars novel authors, and details like that are all over the expanded universe stuff. Yeah, thats what I assumed too. Still jarring though.
On a side note, I attempted the Star Wars EU this summer. Nope.
A lot of the expanded universe is shit. They started out really strong with The Thrawn Trilogy, but everything after that varied from okay to total garbage. If you don't like Timothy Zahn's stuff, you'll never like any of the rest of it. He's the cream of the crop.
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IanTheCool
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Post by IanTheCool on Aug 9, 2020 11:44:09 GMT -5
Why did I attempt? Or why is it a nope?
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IanTheCool
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Post by IanTheCool on Aug 9, 2020 11:49:32 GMT -5
Yeah, thats what I assumed too. Still jarring though.
On a side note, I attempted the Star Wars EU this summer. Nope.
A lot of the expanded universe is shit. They started out really strong with The Thrawn Trilogy, but everything after that varied from okay to total garbage. If you don't like Timothy Zahn's stuff, you'll never like any of the rest of it. He's the cream of the crop. The Thrawn Trilogy is starting out strong?? That's what I started with. I guess I will never like any of the rest.
I found that the characters didn't feel like the characters, and often said things and acted in ways I did not find believable for those characters. Also, bringing minor characters (aka. admiral ackbar) to the forefront seems neat in theory but silly in actualization.
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Neverending
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Post by Neverending on Aug 9, 2020 12:00:49 GMT -5
A lot of the expanded universe is shit. They started out really strong with The Thrawn Trilogy, but everything after that varied from okay to total garbage. If you don't like Timothy Zahn's stuff, you'll never like any of the rest of it. He's the cream of the crop. The Thrawn Trilogy is starting out strong?? That's what I started with. I guess I will never like any of the rest.
I found that the characters didn't feel like the characters, and often said things and acted in ways I did not find believable for those characters. Also, bringing minor characters (aka. admiral ackbar) to the forefront seems neat in theory but silly in actualization.
It’s better than the J.J. Abrams bullshit. Did you get to Luke’s wife Mara Jade?
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IanTheCool
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Post by IanTheCool on Aug 9, 2020 12:07:27 GMT -5
Neverending is a Star Wars EU fan???
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thebtskink
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Post by thebtskink on Aug 10, 2020 6:38:17 GMT -5
The old EU stuff with the twins is good, though it has a trash trilogy thrown in the middle.
Kyle Katarn from the old site got me into all that stuff
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Deexan
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Post by Deexan on Aug 31, 2020 3:03:49 GMT -5
"Dismemberment Tally" is straight up weird as fuck.
Classic Ian.
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