Dracula
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Post by Dracula on Mar 14, 2020 20:21:30 GMT -5
But Peterson aside, I've had this conversation with people before concerning Joe Rogan specifically (which is kind of a weird topic to be arguing about) and it's not a coincidence that all of the people deemed 'problematic' are right of center folks or people who promote right of center ideas. Lots of left and center left guests go through his podcast but you don't hear a lot of protest. Cenk Uygur and Ana Kasparian were on in the past and I don't remember hearing much about it but whenever Ben Shapiro goes on 'he's gotta be stopped!' I say this not because I'm an ardent defender of Ben Shapiro or Jordan Peterson but because all this does is play into the conservative trope that the left wants to cramp down on free speech or opinions they don't like. The Fox News crowd says it all the time, 'liberals want to ban free speech!' Saying that certain people shouldn't have a platform doesn't help dispel that notion and all it does is get people who otherwise wouldn't give a shit about someone like Alex Jones to start defending Alex Jones. If Rogan or some other podcaster has someone on that you don't care for the best thing you can do is not listen to that episode rather than give credence to the notion that liberals are only interested in defending peoples' rights to agree with them. Look man, I'm not an expert on the exploits of The Young Turks but I don't think they have a habit of going on wildly Islamophobic rants like Ben Shapiro, they never wrote an article called "Would You Rather Your Child Had Feminism Or Cancer?" like Milo Yiannopoulos, and they certainly haven't spread conspiracy theories about the Parkland families being "crisis actors" like Alex Jones. This whole dichotomy you're setting up is false equivalency bullshit. Maybe it's not "fair" that fringe left wing personalities are less toxic than fringe right wing personalities but those are the breaks when your philosophy, when taken to the extreme, is routinely racist, misogynistic, and homophobic. When putting together that little list of assholes he brings onto his show I very deliberately left Dan Crenshaw off the list. That guy is also a fuckhead but as an elected official he's the kind of person who is worth engaging with and debating. For that matter I would not object to him inviting on mainsteam conservatives like George Will or even Sean Hannity. Wouldn't watch it or like it, but wouldn't protest it. Inviting on the leader of a full on hate group like Gavin McInnes, attender of the tiki-torch march, is very different. |
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thebtskink
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Post by thebtskink on Mar 14, 2020 20:36:08 GMT -5
Do you think his show exposes people to those ideologies that wouldn't already be looking for them?
As much as we'd like to pretend, I dont think alt-right guys only consume alt-right content. And if they did, they certainly would know where to find it without needing Rogan.
National Review guy was on political talk shows for years, but no one ever talked about "platforming" then.
I tend to believe that giving these guys interviews also helps to expose their stupid views as stupid, but I who knows- maybe i have too much faith.
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Doomsday
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Post by Doomsday on Mar 14, 2020 20:44:50 GMT -5
I've listened to a number of interviews with Jordan Peterson and I've never heard him say anything racist or sexist, unless you consider him poking holes in the general idea of the gender wage gap to be sexist. As for his transphobia, he gained internet notoriety by talking about so-called speech laws coming down the pipe in Canada but his argument had less to do with gender pronouns and more to do with government compelling certain speech under threat of civil or criminal penalties. He's even said that he uses preferred pronouns when speaking to transgender people but his issue lies with a government threatening you professionally or personally if you refuse to do so. If I'm wrong I'll be happy to have a listen to anything racist or sexist that he's had to say. In an interview with Stefan Molyneux (noted insane person), Peterson supported racial differences in IQ scores. In an interview with Vice regarding sexual harassment in the work place, Peterson said that maybe women shouldn't wear make-up to work. In one of his youtube videos, he said that feminists defend Islam because "they secretly yearn for male domination". He gained notoriety by blatantly misrepresenting a bill which added gender discrimination to hate speech laws. So if you assaulted a trans person, for example, you might be charged with a hate crime and not just assault. That law had nothing to do with pronouns. He either didn't understand it, in which case he isn't very smart and isn't worth taking seriously. Or he did understand it, and he deliberately misrepresented it to appeal to a certain sect of the online population to propel his public profile. He also tweeted at an Indian critic who gave his book a negative review that he'd "happily slap him". There's also the dog whistle statements he's made about how women would actually be happier in the home and that those who commit to work end up being less happy. I’m not going to go delve deep into every one of these but if even half are true then yeah, he’s a dick. |
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Dracula
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Post by Dracula on Mar 14, 2020 20:49:57 GMT -5
Do you think his show exposes people to those ideologies that wouldn't already be looking for them? Yes. In fact I would say that the fact that 80% of what Joe Rogen does is not right wing political content is kind of what makes it a dangerous platform to be featuring people like this. There is probably a sizable audience who listen to Rogen because he's usually talking to comedians or MMA fighters and then suddenly get exposed to prettified hate speech that Rogen does next to nothing to try to fight back against which is being placed on the same level as, say, Neil Degrass Tyson or that epidemiologist from earlier in the thread. In many ways Rogen has been a gateway to the mainstream to these fuckwads. |
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Doomsday
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Post by Doomsday on Mar 14, 2020 23:14:32 GMT -5
But Peterson aside, I've had this conversation with people before concerning Joe Rogan specifically (which is kind of a weird topic to be arguing about) and it's not a coincidence that all of the people deemed 'problematic' are right of center folks or people who promote right of center ideas. Lots of left and center left guests go through his podcast but you don't hear a lot of protest. Cenk Uygur and Ana Kasparian were on in the past and I don't remember hearing much about it but whenever Ben Shapiro goes on 'he's gotta be stopped!' I say this not because I'm an ardent defender of Ben Shapiro or Jordan Peterson but because all this does is play into the conservative trope that the left wants to cramp down on free speech or opinions they don't like. The Fox News crowd says it all the time, 'liberals want to ban free speech!' Saying that certain people shouldn't have a platform doesn't help dispel that notion and all it does is get people who otherwise wouldn't give a shit about someone like Alex Jones to start defending Alex Jones. If Rogan or some other podcaster has someone on that you don't care for the best thing you can do is not listen to that episode rather than give credence to the notion that liberals are only interested in defending peoples' rights to agree with them. Look man, I'm not an expert on the exploits of The Young Turks but I don't think they have a habit of going on wildly Islamophobic rants like Ben Shapiro, they never wrote an article called "Would You Rather Your Child Had Feminism Or Cancer?" like Milo Yiannopoulos, and they certainly haven't spread conspiracy theories about the Parkland families being "crisis actors" like Alex Jones. This whole dichotomy you're setting up is false equivalency bullshit. Maybe it's not "fair" that fringe left wing personalities are less toxic than fringe right wing personalities but those are the breaks when your philosophy, when taken to the extreme, is routinely racist, misogynistic, and homophobic. When putting together that little list of assholes he brings onto his show I very deliberately left Dan Crenshaw off the list. That guy is also a fuckhead but as an elected official he's the kind of person who is worth engaging with and debating. For that matter I would not object to him inviting on mainsteam conservatives like George Will or even Sean Hannity. Wouldn't watch it or like it, but wouldn't protest it. Inviting on the leader of a full on hate group like Gavin McInnes, attender of the tiki-torch march, is very different. Lumping them all together is what's creating a false equivalence. Truth be told I actually have some close friends who are also friends with Shapiro (we're both LA guys and the same age). I've never met him but I'm pretty familiar with a lot of what he's had to say over time and only if you really stretch it could you consider him an 'Islamaphobe.' He's an Orthodox Jew so of course he's going to have pretty passionate opinions on the Israel/Palestine situation if that's what you're referring to but by and large he's a pretty down the line conservative with not uncommon conservative views (he also has a podcast where he frequently interviews people with opposing viewpoints so there's that). If that's what you consider problematic then your threshold is lower than mine I guess. As for Milo and Alex Jones, I agree that those guys are trash (and are worlds apart from Ben Shapiro) and look what happened to them. Their careers are done and they've been exposed because they've been able to present their lame ideas. When was the last time anyone even saw Milo on tv? If they want to make a youtube channel that some idiots want to follow, fine. But all those guys, all Rogan guests aside, to say that Joe Rogan is 'enabling' them because he has them on his show and that him speaking with them is a problem, if that's the case then let's just not interview anyone who might have some lame opinions. I just don't agree that a guy who deliberately attempts to bring as diverse a crowd as possible onto his show is creating issues because there are certain people that he has on who, well, just shouldn't be given the opportunity to speak. At the end of the day, I'm just from a school of thought that doesn't like the idea of judging who should be given a platform and who shouldn't based on views that I personally find to be unsavory. I'm with skink in that I think the best way to sift through offensive views and bad people is to challenge them and expose those ideas. Whenever an attempt is made to 'cancel' or 'demonetize' someone they immediately use it as a chance to make themselves into martyrs. Gavin McInnes is a perfect example. Remember Messala in Ben-Hur? 'How do you fight an idea? With another idea.' Yeah i know he was the bad guy but that doesn't make him wrong. Maybe it's not "fair" that fringe left wing personalities are less toxic than fringe right wing personalities but those are the breaks when your philosophy, when taken to the extreme, is routinely racist, misogynistic, and homophobic. Extreme left philosophies have resulted in lots of dead people too. Arguing which side is worse when taken to the extreme is like trying to decide which testicle you'd prefer to be shot in like that guy in Training Day. |
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Dracula
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Post by Dracula on Mar 15, 2020 7:54:03 GMT -5
Look man, I'm not an expert on the exploits of The Young Turks but I don't think they have a habit of going on wildly Islamophobic rants like Ben Shapiro, they never wrote an article called "Would You Rather Your Child Had Feminism Or Cancer?" like Milo Yiannopoulos, and they certainly haven't spread conspiracy theories about the Parkland families being "crisis actors" like Alex Jones. This whole dichotomy you're setting up is false equivalency bullshit. Maybe it's not "fair" that fringe left wing personalities are less toxic than fringe right wing personalities but those are the breaks when your philosophy, when taken to the extreme, is routinely racist, misogynistic, and homophobic. When putting together that little list of assholes he brings onto his show I very deliberately left Dan Crenshaw off the list. That guy is also a fuckhead but as an elected official he's the kind of person who is worth engaging with and debating. For that matter I would not object to him inviting on mainsteam conservatives like George Will or even Sean Hannity. Wouldn't watch it or like it, but wouldn't protest it. Inviting on the leader of a full on hate group like Gavin McInnes, attender of the tiki-torch march, is very different. Lumping them all together is what's creating a false equivalence. Truth be told I actually have some close friends who are also friends with Shapiro (we're both LA guys and the same age). I've never met him but I'm pretty familiar with a lot of what he's had to say over time and only if you really stretch it could you consider him an 'Islamaphobe.' He's an Orthodox Jew so of course he's going to have pretty passionate opinions on the Israel/Palestine situation if that's what you're referring to but by and large he's a pretty down the line conservative with not uncommon conservative views (he also has a podcast where he frequently interviews people with opposing viewpoints so there's that). If that's what you consider problematic then your threshold is lower than mine I guess. As for Milo and Alex Jones, I agree that those guys are trash (and are worlds apart from Ben Shapiro) and look what happened to them. Their careers are done and they've been exposed because they've been able to present their lame ideas. When was the last time anyone even saw Milo on tv? If they want to make a youtube channel that some idiots want to follow, fine. But all those guys, all Rogan guests aside, to say that Joe Rogan is 'enabling' them because he has them on his show and that him speaking with them is a problem, if that's the case then let's just not interview anyone who might have some lame opinions. I just don't agree that a guy who deliberately attempts to bring as diverse a crowd as possible onto his show is creating issues because there are certain people that he has on who, well, just shouldn't be given the opportunity to speak. Milo is mostly just gone because he finally said something dumb enough (his defense of pedophilia) that mainstream conservatism wanted nothing more to do with him and the real alt right was never terribly interested in working with a gay guy in the first place. As for Alex Jones, his downfall has very little to do with the mainstream rejecting him and everything to do with Youtube and Twitter finally deciding to ban his ass. That's what really stopped most of his nonsense and misinformation. Maybe it's not "fair" that fringe left wing personalities are less toxic than fringe right wing personalities but those are the breaks when your philosophy, when taken to the extreme, is routinely racist, misogynistic, and homophobic. Extreme left philosophies have resulted in lots of dead people too. Arguing which side is worse when taken to the extreme is like trying to decide which testicle you'd prefer to be shot in like that guy in Training Day. If a far left wing Young Turks watcher decided he or she wanted to make medicare for all happen they likely aren't going to be able to do much of anything about it beyond general political activity. If a far right wing Alex Jones listener decides they want to start a race war they just need to grab a gun and go down to the mosque. |
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PG Cooper
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Post by PG Cooper on Mar 15, 2020 8:37:40 GMT -5
Truth be told I actually have some close friends who are also friends with Shapiro (we're both LA guys and the same age). I've never met him but I'm pretty familiar with a lot of what he's had to say over time and only if you really stretch it could you consider him an 'Islamaphobe.' He's an Orthodox Jew so of course he's going to have pretty passionate opinions on the Israel/Palestine situation if that's what you're referring to but by and large he's a pretty down the line conservative with not uncommon conservative views (he also has a podcast where he frequently interviews people with opposing viewpoints so there's that). If that's what you consider problematic then your threshold is lower than mine I guess. Homeboy also made a video for Prager U called "The Myth of the Tiny Radical Muslim Minority" where he stoked fear of evil Muslim terrorists coming to destroy the West. |
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Post by PG Cooper on Mar 15, 2020 8:39:10 GMT -5
In an interview with Stefan Molyneux (noted insane person), Peterson supported racial differences in IQ scores. In an interview with Vice regarding sexual harassment in the work place, Peterson said that maybe women shouldn't wear make-up to work. In one of his youtube videos, he said that feminists defend Islam because "they secretly yearn for male domination". He gained notoriety by blatantly misrepresenting a bill which added gender discrimination to hate speech laws. So if you assaulted a trans person, for example, you might be charged with a hate crime and not just assault. That law had nothing to do with pronouns. He either didn't understand it, in which case he isn't very smart and isn't worth taking seriously. Or he did understand it, and he deliberately misrepresented it to appeal to a certain sect of the online population to propel his public profile. He also tweeted at an Indian critic who gave his book a negative review that he'd "happily slap him". There's also the dog whistle statements he's made about how women would actually be happier in the home and that those who commit to work end up being less happy. I’m not going to go delve deep into every one of these but if even half are true then yeah, he’s a dick. Hope I didn't come off as overwhelming. Peterson teaches in the same province I study in so I've spent a decent amount of time reading about him. Probably too much. |
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Doomsday
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Post by Doomsday on Mar 15, 2020 15:00:54 GMT -5
Peter Beinart to be fair is no friend of Ben Shapiro, they've sniped back and forth for years, you can probably find some of their back and forths on youtube and frankly Beinart isn't the most unbiased person in the argument either. Shapiro however has walked back some of the more contentious things he said in his late teens/early twenties and has clarified repeatedly that his criticisms are aimed at Hamas and the Palestinian Authority and not Muslims on the whole. As for AJ and Milo, they were in the spotlight before being canceled and their repeated appearances on mainstream news I'm sure had something to do with their dropping out of the social sphere. But I'm with you in that they're trash and then having less (or no) influence is a good thing. Truth be told I actually have some close friends who are also friends with Shapiro (we're both LA guys and the same age). I've never met him but I'm pretty familiar with a lot of what he's had to say over time and only if you really stretch it could you consider him an 'Islamaphobe.' He's an Orthodox Jew so of course he's going to have pretty passionate opinions on the Israel/Palestine situation if that's what you're referring to but by and large he's a pretty down the line conservative with not uncommon conservative views (he also has a podcast where he frequently interviews people with opposing viewpoints so there's that). If that's what you consider problematic then your threshold is lower than mine I guess. Homeboy also made a video for Prager U called "The Myth of the Tiny Radical Muslim Minority" where he stoked fear of evil Muslim terrorists coming to destroy the West. I've seen that video. It was less about working people up to prepare against the imminent Muslim horde and more about dispelling the notion that people have nothing to worry about regarding radical Islam and that it's just a small, isolated pocket of an otherwise tame religion. I can't remember what numbers he used but it's not an uncommon conservative argument that if there are 1.8 billion Muslims in the world and just 1% are radicalized and vowing to destroy the West, that's 18 million people. If that's true then that's a lot of people who want to cause trouble. I haven't personally read too many studies about this nor is it a road I care to go down on a movie message board but there was a Gallup poll that made the rounds a while back, Shapiro may have mentioned it in the same video, I know Bill Maher and Sam Harris spoke a lot about it to much uproar but it highlighted attitudes among extreme to moderate Muslims that were either controversial or affirmed your opinions on Islam, depending on where you sit. I don't think anyone has argued that all Muslims are an issue and pointing out that there may be a problem among a number of people who adhere to the more extreme religious beliefs isn't Islamaphonic in my opinion, just like saying 'there's a small number of white people who are right wing extremists and we need to keep an eye on them' isn't racist despite what hard conservatives will tell you. |
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Post by SnoBorderZero on Mar 18, 2020 13:53:26 GMT -5
Bro, these combined are longer than Part II.
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Post by thebtskink on Mar 18, 2020 13:56:51 GMT -5
Bro, these combined are longer than Part II. They're good though, this podcast as a whole is one of the better things to come out of The Ringer. Chris Ryan is a treasure |
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Post by thebtskink on Mar 23, 2020 16:29:40 GMT -5
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Post by SnoBorderZero on Mar 29, 2020 22:20:08 GMT -5
It's hard to imagine now because he looks like he starts his day with a dozen Krispy Kremes, but Barkley was a hell of an athlete and such a dynamic player for his time.
Not as explosive as say a Zion or LeBron but he was our '80s/'90s version of those guys for sure. Shawn Kemp wasn't as good but was also fucking awesome to watch.
Ah '90s basketball, things have changed so much.
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Post by PG Cooper on Mar 29, 2020 23:22:52 GMT -5
It's hard to imagine now because he looks like he starts his day with a dozen Krispy Kremes Who can blame him? Krispy Kremes rule. |
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Post by IanTheCool on Mar 29, 2020 23:40:55 GMT -5
The name Krispy Kreme sounds so delicious that I never actually want to try one of their donuts. I don't think it would be able to meet the expectations the name has put into my imagination.
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Post by Nilade on Mar 30, 2020 0:09:59 GMT -5
The name Krispy Kreme sounds so delicious that I never actually want to try one of their donuts. I don't think it would be able to meet the expectations the name has put into my imagination. This is what you're missing...  |
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