Doomsday
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Post by Doomsday on Dec 5, 2020 1:43:50 GMT -5
Mank
In preparation for Mank I decided to rewatch Citizen Kane earlier this week. Truth be told I've only seen Citizen Kane a couple of times in my life as it's a movie that I appreciate more than I enjoy. Upon rewatching it my enjoyment hasn't much changed but at the very least it was a good decision in that many things featured in Mank are meant to serve as callbacks to Kane, not just the obvious plot points but the overall structure of the movie as well. Gary Oldman plays Herman Mankiewicz, a washed up alcoholic screenwriter who's holed up in a small flat in Victorville, CA, a desert town smack dab between Los Angeles and Las Vegas. He's been hired by Orson Welles to write a screenplay and we cut back and forth between his writing angst and the previous few years where he has contentious relationships with the likes of Louis B. Mayer, Irving Thalberg and William Randolph Hearst. The cutbacks show how previous events served as direct and indirect inspiration for Citizen Kane (a reason why a CK rewatch wouldn't be a bad idea before watching this movie) and also depicts how his sympathies for leftwing Upton Sinclair (played by Bill Nye of all people) added fuel to the fire that burned the bridges between himself and the studio power players.
One thing I couldn't help but notice were a few similarities between this film and another screenwriter biopic Trumbo. Trumbo is a more direct, linear narrative and isn't as audiacious as Mank but even the way Gary Oldman portrays Mank seems quite similar to Bryan Cranston's performance in addition to some of its political themes. I suppose my main issue with Mank is that in trying to incorporate so much it hits many things softly while not hitting anything directly. It's a movie where I found myself not really connecting with anyone on screen, where events that should carry some heft seem to come and go, and things happen because they're supposed to rather than because they're related. I enjoyed seeing how it's a time capsule of sorts and you can see the effort that went into portraying these huge societal titans of the 1930s and 40s, however like Citizen Kane it again appears to be a movie that I appreciate more than I enjoy. The difference is that I'll probably watch Citizen Kane again before too long. I'm not so sure about Mank.
Much like its titular character, Mank is a successful but flawed, often choppy movie that gives you the sense of watching an old Hollywood film but fails to ultimately draw you in. Will this be a movie talked about in the midst of awards season? Well considering how messed up this year has been it might be but I don't think it's one people will gravitate toward. Maybe they will but while this isn't a bad film by any means it's not the best work from anyone involved either.
B so says Doomsday
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PG Cooper
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Post by PG Cooper on Dec 5, 2020 10:37:54 GMT -5
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PhantomKnight
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Post by PhantomKnight on Dec 5, 2020 12:43:30 GMT -5
Is it absolutely necessary to re-watch Citizen Kane before seeing this?
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PG Cooper
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Post by PG Cooper on Dec 5, 2020 12:45:28 GMT -5
Is it absolutely necessary to re-watch Citizen Kane before seeing this? No. But Kane does rule.
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Doomsday
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Post by Doomsday on Dec 5, 2020 12:46:01 GMT -5
Is it absolutely necessary to re-watch Citizen Kane before seeing this? For me personally, it helped me appreciate a lot in terms of characters, events they allude to, etc. That’s because I didn’t remember Citizen Kane terribly well though, if you’re more familiar with it then you should be okay.
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PhantomKnight
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Post by PhantomKnight on Dec 5, 2020 12:57:04 GMT -5
Is it absolutely necessary to re-watch Citizen Kane before seeing this? For me personally, it helped me appreciate a lot in terms of characters, events they allude to, etc. That’s because I didn’t remember Citizen Kane terribly well though, if you’re more familiar with it then you should be okay. So if the last time I watched it was February 8th, 2013...probably yes?
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Doomsday
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Post by Doomsday on Dec 5, 2020 12:59:34 GMT -5
For me personally, it helped me appreciate a lot in terms of characters, events they allude to, etc. That’s because I didn’t remember Citizen Kane terribly well though, if you’re more familiar with it then you should be okay. So if the last time I watched it was February 8th, 2013...probably yes? I would say watch it again, it will only help you appreciate Mank that much more.
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PhantomKnight
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Post by PhantomKnight on Dec 5, 2020 13:06:33 GMT -5
So if the last time I watched it was February 8th, 2013...probably yes? I would say watch it again, it will only help you appreciate Mank that much more. HBO Max to the rescue.
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PG Cooper
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Post by PG Cooper on Dec 5, 2020 14:01:30 GMT -5
I would say watch it again, it will only help you appreciate Mank that much more. HBO Max to the rescue. Bro you don't have the 75th anniversary Blu-Ray?
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Doomsday
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Post by Doomsday on Dec 5, 2020 14:08:57 GMT -5
Do you even movie PK??
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PhantomKnight
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Post by PhantomKnight on Dec 5, 2020 14:15:04 GMT -5
If this question is supposed to be, "Do you even own the movie, PK??" then no, not currently. However, it's been on my personal wishlist since at least January of this year.
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1godzillafan
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Post by 1godzillafan on Dec 5, 2020 15:12:17 GMT -5
Bro you don't have the 75th anniversary Blu-Ray? I own Chopping Mall on blu-ray but not Citzen Kane and I intend to keep it that way.
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Doomsday
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Post by Doomsday on Dec 5, 2020 15:35:58 GMT -5
If this question is supposed to be, "Do you even own the movie, PK??" then no, not currently. However, it's been on my personal wishlist since at least January of this year. That was my poor attempt to mimic memes. Have you seen those that say things like 'do you even lift bro?' and then others took off like 'do you even sports bro?' or 'do you even school bro?' This is what happens when you have dads trying to be hip.
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1godzillafan
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Post by 1godzillafan on Dec 5, 2020 16:15:26 GMT -5
Doomsday can't be hip. He just blows his hip out.
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PhantomKnight
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Post by PhantomKnight on Dec 5, 2020 17:00:33 GMT -5
If this question is supposed to be, "Do you even own the movie, PK??" then no, not currently. However, it's been on my personal wishlist since at least January of this year. That was my poor attempt to mimic memes. Have you seen those that say things like 'do you even lift bro?' and then others took off like 'do you even sports bro?' or 'do you even school bro?' This is what happens when you have dads trying to be hip. Well, you're not alone. I don't keep up with "the memes" either.
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Doomsday
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Post by Doomsday on Dec 5, 2020 17:44:38 GMT -5
That was my poor attempt to mimic memes. Have you seen those that say things like 'do you even lift bro?' and then others took off like 'do you even sports bro?' or 'do you even school bro?' This is what happens when you have dads trying to be hip. Well, you're not alone. I don't keep up with "the memes" either.
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1godzillafan
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Post by 1godzillafan on Dec 5, 2020 17:53:16 GMT -5
Well, you're not alone. I don't keep up with "the memes" either. He made it up. WHAT MORE DO YOU WANT?
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Dracula
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Post by Dracula on Dec 5, 2020 17:56:30 GMT -5
That was my poor attempt to mimic memes. Have you seen those that say things like 'do you even lift bro?' and then others took off like 'do you even sports bro?' or 'do you even school bro?' This is what happens when you have dads trying to be hip. Well, you're not alone. I don't keep up with "the memes" either. Well, I'm hip to the latest Memes
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Neverending
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Post by Neverending on Dec 5, 2020 18:38:24 GMT -5
David Fincher: Let’s make a biopic about the Beatles but focus on Ringo.
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SnoBorderZero
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Post by SnoBorderZero on Dec 5, 2020 19:39:01 GMT -5
Citizen Kane needs no introduction. While the film certainly splits people, many of whom were "forced" to view it in film school or out of prodding by fellow film aficionados, its legacy as the greatest film of all time is well known and catapulted director and star Orson Welles into the stratosphere of artistic prodigies the likes of which we still haven't seen matched in the art world since. Welles' career after Citizen Kane is the subject of as much controversy as his debut feature, and despite some incredible accomplishments like Touch of Evil was never able to regain the high of his initial effort. This was due to numerous reasons, from studios making foolish cuts to his movies as was the case with his second film, The Magnificent Ambersons. Or plainly due to Welles' brilliance making a toxic mix with his arrogance and perfection which resulted in many projects being started but never finished. Whatever side of the Welles argument you're on (or even care enough to indulge in), clear consensus will always be that Citizen Kane was his landmark achievement and he never reached those astronomical heights that the "boy wonder" set in 1941 ever again. Detractors of Welles (and there are plenty) will point out that Welles received far too much credit for Citizen Kane. Those incredible deep focus shots he achieved? Well that's due to legendary cinematographer Greg Tolland. The incredible production design and makeup? Also not done by Welles. We all know that despite our fandom for directors that films are never made by one person, but it's hard to not see Welles' influence on every frame and decision in Citizen Kane.
And yet, the most controversial and potentially damaging blow to Welles' legacy with Citizen Kane has always been the dispute of how much of the story he conceived, if any at all. Lost in the shuffle of the greatness of Citizen Kane was its true screenwriter: Herman Mankiewicz, the older brother of prolific director Joseph Mankiewicz who gave us classics like All About Eve. It's one of those interesting bits of old Hollywood trivia and rumor that's ripe for a movie, and sure enough the father of filmmaker David Fincher, Jack Fincher, thought so too. Now, his son has dusted off his screenplay and made his return to feature films with his first movie in six years to delve into this very topic. Mank is a success in multiple ways, though those seeking a film that focuses on much of what I've discussed here will be sorely disappointed as this is in no way a story about the battle over the artistic rights and recognition to "the greatest movie ever made". Instead, Mank is a biopic and character study of the boisterous and brilliant screenwriter who's finally getting the Hollywood accolade that's been long overdue and the various relationships he formed that inspired the principle characters of Citizen Kane. While the film may only appeal to the niche group of people who love cinema and give a damn about Citizen Kane's legacy in the first place, Mank is a delightfully entertaining glimpse into the classic Hollywood system and the nasty politics that dominated it.
Mank is told through a non-linear timeline, jumping back-and-forth between the past and present and cleverly doing so with titles of screenplay slug lines to eliminate any confusion. The central storyline focuses on Herman Mankiewicz (Gary Oldman) being paid by Orson Welles (Tom Burke) to live in a remote home in Victorville, California, a literal desert, to craft the screenplay for Welles' much anticipated jump from radio to movies. RKO, as Welles tells him, has granted them unfettered artistic control, but Welles has also shaved off a month of preparation time and needs Mank to deliver the extensive treatment in just sixty days. Mank, whose leg is broken due to a road accident, is attended to by Rita Alexander (Lily Collins), who transcribes his thoughts and attempts to keep him focused and sober through the process. It becomes clear that Mank is basing Citizen Kane off of his friend Marion Davies (Amanda Seyfried) and her relationship with newspaper tycoon William Randolph Hearst (Charles Dance), and that what he's doing is highly dangerous and potentially career damaging. In flashbacks, we view Mank's relationship with both of these characters as well as his place within the highly structured Hollywood studio system of the 1930s and 1940s.
While some viewers will be dismayed at how little of interactions between Mank and Welles there are, I found the flashback scenes of Mank to be the most compelling and interesting elements of the film. For classic film buffs, there's a lot of cameos by prominent figures in Hollywood history that are a lot of fun to see, though most pivotal is MGM studio boss Louis B. Mayer (Alriss Howard), who demands his employees sacrifice their wages while fighting a political battle against Upton Sinclair (Bill Nye) who's fighting for worker's rights and holding the wealthy accountable. Mank, who's able to keep his unpopular opinions to himself as well as he does his chronic gambling and drinking, bears no allegiance towards the studio system and its operators despite being within their company and is constantly at odds with these morally dubious powerhouses throughout the movie. It's certainly a parallel with his present battle with Welles for artistic integrity and his voice as a human being, something virtually nonexistent in the classic Hollywood studio system during this time.
Oldman is, per usual, sensational to watch as Herman Mankiewicz and is masterful under Fincher's taut direction as he keeps all of these events moving with humor and wit all the while battling his own personal strifes with worthiness and belonging in this unfair business. Though Mank is a film made by one of the world's greatest filmmakers for film enthusiasts, Oldman's turn as Mankiewicz should appeal to anyone that can appreciate drama that arises from sharp back-and-forths through dialogue, a trait that Fincher has excelled at throughout his career and especially with his masterpiece, The Social Network. Like that film, Mank may appear to be a simple character study containing some nice wordplay, but it contains immensely insightful discussions of ownership, moral obligation, and maintaining identity and purpose in the face of corporatized interests. Mank is perhaps Fincher at his most fun, but that shouldn't be dismissed as the master making a lighter effort in his return to feature films. We largely know the story of Mank vs. Welles: Welles won and Citizen Kane was his magnum opus while for Mankiewicz it was the golden Oscar nail in his coffin. What we didn't know were the complexities and circumstances behind why that was the case for Herman Mankiewicz, and that perhaps our own adoration for the "geniuses" behind classic Hollywood should be reevaluated entirely.
8/10
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Neverending
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Post by Neverending on Dec 5, 2020 20:12:36 GMT -5
Detractors of Welles (and there are plenty) will point out that Welles received far too much credit for Citizen Kane. That is a stupid argument and misses the point of what a director does. And quite frankly, is the reason this movie doesn’t really work. The screenplay for Citizen Kane is at the bottom of the list of reasons that Citizen Kane is considered a masterpiece. This isn’t like George Lucas’ wife fixing Star Wars in the editing. The script was merely the blueprint for Orson Welles to do whatever the fuck he wanted to do. To sit here and claim that Herman Mankewicz is the “real genius” behind Citizen Kane is fucking absurd.
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Dracula
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Post by Dracula on Dec 5, 2020 20:21:57 GMT -5
Detractors of Welles (and there are plenty) will point out that Welles received far too much credit for Citizen Kane. That is a stupid argument and misses the point of what a director does. And quite frankly, is the reason this movie doesn’t really work. The screenplay for Citizen Kane is at the bottom of the list of reasons that Citizen Kane is considered a masterpiece. This isn’t like George Lucas’ wife fixing Star Wars in the editing. The script was merely the blueprint for Orson Welles to do whatever the fuck he wanted to do. To sit here and claim that Herman Mankewicz is the “real genius” behind Citizen Kane is fucking absurd. Pauline Kael was at the heart of the "Mankewicz is the real genius" crowd, but she was kind of trolling. She was a critic of the auteur theory and was using this argument to undermine it.
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SnoBorderZero
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Post by SnoBorderZero on Dec 5, 2020 20:39:08 GMT -5
Detractors of Welles (and there are plenty) will point out that Welles received far too much credit for Citizen Kane. That is a stupid argument and misses the point of what a director does. And quite frankly, is the reason this movie doesn’t really work. The screenplay for Citizen Kane is at the bottom of the list of reasons that Citizen Kane is considered a masterpiece. This isn’t like George Lucas’ wife fixing Star Wars in the editing. The script was merely the blueprint for Orson Welles to do whatever the fuck he wanted to do. To sit here and claim that Herman Mankewicz is the “real genius” behind Citizen Kane is fucking absurd. I don't agree with these detractors of Welles and agree with you that these people miss the point of what a director does and are just looking to nitpick the movie because it's "the greatest ever made". But to say that the screenplay for Citizen Kane isn't a monumental reason for its legacy is wrong. The blending of news reel footage, flashbacks, unreliable narrators, and detective story approach to the whole thing is seen as groundbreaking. While none of these elements on their own were the first in cinema history, what other movie did all of them so seamlessly like Citizen Kane did? Not even D.W. Griffith's movies can boast that. Also it's just a damn good screenplay. The dialogue is exceptional and the narrative structure is perfect. Did Welles take Mankiewicz's sprawling treatment and trim it down to the 120 pages that makes Citizen Kane? Probably. But you can't downplay the script itself, it's absolutely a big reason why film scholars view Citizen Kane as the landmark that it is.
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Post by SnoBorderZero on Dec 5, 2020 20:47:36 GMT -5
I think the larger point too is not so much to anoint Mank as the genius of Citizen Kane. It's more that he wasn't given the credit he deserved, stifled by Welles, the studio system, and just the general small fish in the big American pond idea that many people are still plagued with today.
The bosses of the studios don't care about art, they care about churning out a product. Look through Hollywood history and even the greats of these systems were treated like dirt. Howards Hawks, William Wyler, Michael Curtiz, etc. Shit, do people even know the name of the director who did The Wizard of Oz AND Gone With the Wind IN THE SAME YEAR!? I think that's more of what's at the heart of this film then Fincher seeking to give Mankiewicz credit for the genius behind Citizen Kane. He's a director, he knows that what Orson Welles contributed is what made the film what it is.
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Dracula
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Post by Dracula on Dec 5, 2020 20:51:59 GMT -5
I think the larger point too is not so much to anoint Mank as the genius of Citizen Kane. It's more that he wasn't given the credit he deserved, stifled by both Welles, the studio system, and just the general small fish in the big American pond idea that many people are still plagued with today. The bosses of the studios did and don't care about art, they care about churning out a product. Look through Hollywood history and even the greats of these systems were treated like dirt. Howards Hawks, William Wyler, Michael Curtiz, etc. Shit, do people even know the name of the director who did The Wizard of Oz AND Gone With the Wind IN THE SAME YEAR!? I think that's more of what's at the heart of this film then Fincher seeking to give Mankiewicz credit for the genius behind Citizen Kane. He's a director, he knows that what Orson Welles contributed is what made the film what it is. I would say that the ending of Mank does sort of strike me as a weakness. Mankiewicz' feud with Welles over credit for Citizen Kan was not, in my eyes, even close to the film's main conflict so I'm not sure why they decided to end the film focusing on that when his dealings with the Hearst and the studio system seemed much more central and there was obviously more story to tell when it came to his reaction.
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