PG Cooper
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Post by PG Cooper on Jun 11, 2020 12:40:55 GMT -5
PG Cooper: What happened to the Disney Renaissance? The Real Answer: Frank Wells died. Jeffrey Katzenberg went to form DreamWorks. Michael Eisner went unchecked. The Superficial Answer: Howard Ashman died. Elton John/Tim Rice/Hans Zimmer went to DreamWorks. See: Prince of Egypt and Road to El Dorado. The Cultural Answer: Pixar and Shrek. PG Cooper: I used to think the Disney Renaissance was 90’s Kids nostalgia. Oh, really? How about delving into that, PG Cooper. Personalize your videos so your chauvinistic & white supremest fanbase can get to know your better. Inside the Canadian Cuck: a Disney Renaissance Video Essay. ...lots to unpack here.
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Post by Neverending on Jun 11, 2020 12:46:09 GMT -5
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IanTheCool
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Post by IanTheCool on Jun 11, 2020 12:56:44 GMT -5
Prince of Egypt is great.
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Post by Neverending on Jun 11, 2020 13:09:29 GMT -5
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PG Cooper
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Post by PG Cooper on Jun 11, 2020 13:17:33 GMT -5
Drac reviewed this movie a couple of years ago.
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Post by Neverending on Jun 11, 2020 13:22:28 GMT -5
Drac reviewed this movie a couple of years ago.
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Dracula
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Post by Dracula on Jun 11, 2020 13:34:42 GMT -5
Good stuff. Small constructive critique, you maybe should have waited until a bit later into the video to get into the whole "female agency" thing. When you started down that road I was a little worried that this was just going to be the umpteenth video about whether "princesses" are good role models or whatever, might have lost some people.
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Post by Dracula on Jun 11, 2020 13:35:29 GMT -5
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1godzillafan
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Post by 1godzillafan on Jun 11, 2020 13:44:26 GMT -5
I'm probably going to have to post about it eventually, because apparently it's a controversial one based on the fact that they used it to enter a contest where users would vote for an iRiff group and the winner would be allowed to create an official Rifftrax. The Walkers then used their fan base to flood the voting system, creating a landslide win for them because the other iRiff groups didn't have those kind of resources. They won, of course, and riffed Batman Forever, which I'm more or less obligated to cover as an actually Rifftrax. For what it's worth I'd be very interested in seeing you cover this. I don't really know what else to say about it. Rifftrax had a competition to promote these home brew riffing groups and gave them a shot to be a part of the main site, then Doug Walker stormed in, probably because he's an MST/Rifftrax fan, and wrecked house because he had more resources to exploit. When you boil it down, it's just that scene from the Simpsons when the kids are playing baseball and Bart's picking schoolyard kids for his team while Ralph keeps picking Major League players who happen to be walking by. Technically he's playing by the rules, but it feels like a dick move from someone who's too detached from reality to realize it's a dick move. If I ever get around to these, I'll probably address it, but keep a "separate the art from the artist" point of view for them. After all, this was ten years ago and nobody really cares anymore.
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Post by PG Cooper on Jun 11, 2020 13:59:13 GMT -5
Good stuff. Small constructive critique, you maybe should have waited until a bit later into the video to get into the whole "female agency" thing. When you started down that road I was a little worried that this was just going to be the umpteenth video about whether "princesses" are good role models or whatever, might have lost some people. Fair point. I definitely didn't want to make "that" video. Actually I have a pretty strong distaste for that discussion thanks to a second year film course I took where the instructor thought he was blowing our little minds by showing how Disney movies are actually "problematic". The arguments themselves weren't wrong but man was the dude and the materials he used remarkably smug and self-satisfied.
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Post by Neverending on Jun 11, 2020 14:04:02 GMT -5
you maybe should have waited until a bit later into the video to get into the whole "female agency" thing. It’s not as if the Disney Renaissance was exclusively Princess movies. PG Cooper’s throwaway line of, “I thought these were 90’s Kids nostalgia” should have been the framing device for the video. If you’re gonna do a Generation Z take on these movies, talk about your history with these movies, what they meant to you, why you felt it was “‘90’s Kids nostalgia” and what made you change your mind. You don’t need to keep saying “yeah yeah yeah I know Lindsay Ellis already covered this.” I don’t give three fucks what she said. What do you think. What do you feel. Otherwise, just do a proper history video that actually tackles the inner workings of these videos. Why Little Mermaid works and Pocahontas doesn’t isn’t as simple as “well the formula stopped working.” Those movies had different creative teams and were made under different studio politics. The issue isn’t black and white.
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Post by PG Cooper on Jun 11, 2020 14:13:29 GMT -5
you maybe should have waited until a bit later into the video to get into the whole "female agency" thing. It’s not as if the Disney Renaissance was exclusively Princess movies. PG Cooper’s throwaway line of, “I thought these were 90’s Kids nostalgia” should have been the framing device for the video. If you’re gonna do a Generation Z take on these movies, talk about your history with these movies, what they meant to you, why you felt it was “‘90’s Kids nostalgia” and what made you change your mind. You don’t need to keep saying “yeah yeah yeah I know Lindsay Ellis already covered this.” I don’t give three fucks what she said. What do you think. What do you feel. Otherwise, just do a proper history video that actually tackles the inner workings of these videos. Why Little Mermaid works and Pocahontas doesn’t isn’t as simple as “well the formula stopped working.” Those movies had different creative teams and were made under different studio politics. The issue isn’t black and white. I wasn't making a history of, I was analyzing the screenwriting. It's not the formula "stopped working" so much that the formula is fundamentally inappropriate for the stories Disney was trying to tell in Pocahontas, Hunchback, and Hercules (but especially Pocahontas). As for the framing device you suggest, I don't know that it actually adds all that much the video doesn't already do. There isn't much more to my throwaway line. When I heard peers in high school talk about how great 90s Disney was I thought they were just reminiscing, but rewatching the movies as an adult the screenwriting is remarkably solid, a massive improvement over the writing of classic Disney and a lot more consistent/focused than the Disney which followed, at least until recent years.
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Post by Neverending on Jun 11, 2020 14:23:20 GMT -5
I wasn't making a history of, I was analyzing the screenwriting. It's not the formula "stopped working" so much that the formula is fundamentally inappropriate for the stories Disney was trying to tell in Pocahontas, Hunchback, and Hercules (but especially Pocahontas). But how much is screenplay and how much is the music and animation? Take a look at that garbage “live action” Lion King. It’s stiff & lifeless even though it’s using the same script. Why did you use modern Disney against 90’s Disney? Why did you have “all Disney is the same” mindset?
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Post by PG Cooper on Jun 11, 2020 14:35:45 GMT -5
But how much is screenplay and how much is the music and animation? Take a look at that garbage “live action” Lion King. It’s stiff & lifeless even though it’s using the same script. Sure, there are other factors, but part of my goal with this video is to focus specifically on the writing and not the animation and music. Plus, I still think the writing is the key. Pocahontas looks beautiful and the music is really catchy, but the overall film is still trash. "Make a Man out of You" is one of the most memorable tunes Disney ever did but is an exceptional element in what is otherwise a fairly unremarkable movie. Tarzan has some wildly impressive animation that blends traditional 2D and CGI near seamlessly, but the characters are dull and the story has no spark. Do you mean when I was in high school or in the video?
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Post by Neverending on Jun 11, 2020 14:47:44 GMT -5
Sure, there are other factors, but part of my goal with this video is to focus specifically on the writing and not the animation and music. But the scripts do have issues though. Little Mermaid is problematic. Beauty and the Beast has faulty logic. Aladdin is one-dimensional. People overlook these things cause the music is catchy, the animation is lively and the humor works. In high school
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Post by Neverending on Jun 11, 2020 19:15:15 GMT -5
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Post by PG Cooper on Jun 11, 2020 19:25:32 GMT -5
Ah, no, sorry, I got distracted by a zoom meeting and the PS5 conference. To respond: Sure, there are other factors, but part of my goal with this video is to focus specifically on the writing and not the animation and music. But the scripts do have issues though. Little Mermaid is problematic. Beauty and the Beast has faulty logic. Aladdin is one-dimensional. People overlook these things cause the music is catchy, the animation is lively and the humor works. In high school Little Mermaid is technically problematic but the active protagonist masks this. Beauty and the Beast has faulty logic but it's a fairly tale where those details don't really matter. Plus, any plotholes are overshadowed by the strong characterization and thematic weight. Also, by the seamless bait and switch where Belle gets the "I want" song but the real protagonist is the Beast. He has the greater character transformation. That the filmmakers use Belle to drive the story but really tell the Beast's journey is low-key really impressive. Aladdin is more one dimensional, but the consistency of his character and the details of the story make that less of an issue. Plus, Aladdin has the most back and forth between hero and villain which keeps things fresh. Not saying the animation and songs aren't important, they clearly are, but my goal was to highlight that beneath that style were rock solid storytelling fundamentals. As for the point about my high school dismissal of Disney, it's specifically because it was the Renaissance films my peers geeked out about. They didn't give a shit about Snow White or Pinocchio or The Jungle Book, they cared about the movies the 90s movies they watched on VHS. Hell, a couple years ago a lot of my old high school mates were talking best Disney movies and when I said Fantasia they laughed at me. The assumption of nostalgia was a pretty natural one.
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Post by Dracula on Jun 11, 2020 19:37:03 GMT -5
The "I Want" song in Beauty and the Beast kind of strikes me as a weakness. She says she wants "adventure in the great wide somewhere" and while I suppose being trapped by a monster in a castle just outside your hometown could be considered an "adventure" I'm not sure that's what she had in mind, but the movie doesn't really seem to care. She says she wants adventure, but the movie treats her like what she really wants is a man.
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Post by 1godzillafan on Jun 11, 2020 19:38:38 GMT -5
I'm mad that you shit on his video.
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Post by Neverending on Jun 11, 2020 20:03:18 GMT -5
As for the point about my high school dismissal of Disney, it's specifically because it was the Renaissance films my peers geeked out about. They didn't give a shit about Snow White or Pinocchio or The Jungle Book, they cared about the movies the 90s movies they watched on VHS. Hell, a couple years ago a lot of my old high school mates were talking best Disney movies and when I said Fantasia they laughed at me. The assumption of nostalgia was a pretty natural one. I like that. Would have fit with your Little Mermaid analysis. The one thing I liked about the live-action version is that it made the Beast older. Getting punished felt more justified. In the cartoon, he’s just a child that doesn’t wanna let in some random ass lady into his home. He got turned into a Beast for that? What kinda weird ass message is that telling kids? But... on the other hand... it means the Beast is a teenager. The fact he’s angry and kind of an asshole makes sense. Wouldn’t you? Imagine spending your hormonal-driven years locked in a castle as a Beast. His experience with Belle has less to do with “learning a lesson” and more to do with him finding someone that understands him. The script is flawed because it lacks a clear message. What exactly is the point of the movie? It shows that these movies were made by a committee and conflicting ideas were stitched together. But it works because the characters and well-defined, engaging and the songs guide the audience emotionally. I think Beauty and the Beast is a great movie but that’s in spite of the script. Narratively speaking, Aladdin is pretty straightforward. It functions as a action-adventure-comedy film. The script requirements are different than the other Disney films. You could have touched on that more. This is a movie that has to function as both a Robin Williams movie and a “Disney movie for boys.” You could have also talked about how Disney tackles a Princess movie and how it shifts things for a different audience. The other notable thing about Aladdin is being the only franchise (other than the more comedic-heavy Emperors New Groove and Lilo & Stitch) that worked. The two Aladdin sequels were well-received and the TV series was popular. How Disney managed to take the characters, world and themes of Aladdin and expanded them into other works is pretty rare & significant for Disney. Even now, Disney relies on acquisitions such as Marvel and Star Wars to give them franchises. Really, Pirates of the Caribbean is the only other non-comedy franchise they have. This could have led you to make follow-up videos. I know you watched the whole Pirates series recently and are probably working on a video essay. Connecting Pirates to Aladdin makes sense since they share the same screenwriters. Also, by diving deeper into Aladdin, you can talk about Disney’s television output, in particularly, Gargoyles a/k/a Disney’s answer to Batman: The Animated Series.
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PG Cooper
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Post by PG Cooper on Jun 11, 2020 22:13:11 GMT -5
So uh, remember my video essay on Fan Entitlement? It looks like somebody made a response video to it today...
...it's three hours.
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Post by Dracula on Jun 11, 2020 22:46:53 GMT -5
So uh, remember my video essay on Fan Entitlement? It looks like somebody made a response video to it today... ...it's three hours. Did you listen to all of it?
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Post by Neverending on Jun 11, 2020 22:51:08 GMT -5
So uh, remember my video essay on Fan Entitlement? It looks like somebody made a response video to it today... ...it's three hours. Is that MasterChief?
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Post by PG Cooper on Jun 11, 2020 22:53:31 GMT -5
So uh, remember my video essay on Fan Entitlement? It looks like somebody made a response video to it today... ...it's three hours. Did you listen to all of it? Naw, just skipped around for a couple minutes. Had some laughs then got bored. So uh, remember my video essay on Fan Entitlement? It looks like somebody made a response video to it today... ...it's three hours. Is that MasterChief? Ha! I wish. Manufactured Youtube drama to ride straight to the top.
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Post by Neverending on Jun 11, 2020 23:24:13 GMT -5
Did you listen to all of it? Naw, just skipped around for a couple minutes. Had some laughs then got bored. I can relate. Some British guy did a video (that currently has 800,000 views) and he used an IMDb review I posted in 2002 as a counter-narrative to his topic. All I could say is, why the fuck is Deexan digging through my old-ass high school era IMDb reviews. Motherfucker.
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