SnoBorderZero
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Post by SnoBorderZero on Dec 22, 2019 19:45:10 GMT -5
Another annoying element is that Anakin tries to hold Mace Windu to the whole "it's not the Jedi way, he must stand trial!" when about a half hour ago he cut off Dooku's head. What a hypocrite.
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Wyldstaar
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Post by Wyldstaar on Dec 22, 2019 22:17:21 GMT -5
Another annoying element is that Anakin tries to hold Mace Windu to the whole "it's not the Jedi way, he must stand trial!" when about a half hour ago he cut off Dooku's head. What a hypocrite. A list of inconsistencies in the Prequel Trilogy would no doubt be several pages long. |
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thebtskink
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Post by thebtskink on Mar 4, 2020 19:41:05 GMT -5
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Neverending
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Post by Neverending on Mar 4, 2020 20:05:45 GMT -5
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Wyldstaar
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Post by Wyldstaar on Mar 4, 2020 21:45:55 GMT -5
I did not have to see that.
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IanTheCool
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Post by IanTheCool on Aug 2, 2020 10:23:35 GMT -5
I am going to revisit all the Star Wars movies over the next while. Thought I would add my thoughts here. Started with:
Attack of the Clones!
I'm going to try to give these prequels a fair shake. AotC is often considered the worst of the bunch (apart from that awful, awful Clone Wars movie), which is probably justified. Its hard for me to completely divorce my nostalgia from these movies at the same time, but I do recognize this is probably the weakest fo the films.
Highlights: - The sound design for this movie is incredible. Especially during that chase sequence. The movie wasn't even nominated for Sound at the oscars, which it probably should have been.
- I really like the seismic charges, and really the whole asteroid belt dog fight. It really is a good action scene, and very Star Wars-like.
- Honestly the basic story isn't that bad. The idea of a civil war brewing and the Jedi investigating various actions around this is a good one. There are some major problems I will highlight below though.
- Apart from the excessive digital make-up of the film, there are some really nice-looking visuals and some well-composed shots throughout.
Downfalls: - Let's get the obvious out of the way first. The dialogue here is atrocious, and by extension much of the acting is really bad as well. This is something that comes up a lot in criticism of Clones, and is the primary reason its often considered the worst SW film. But I mean... it is really bad. Ewan McGregor mostly deals with it okay, but not always. Hayden Christenson gets the brunt of this as well, as many of his lines are truly awful, and he really doesn't hit his beats right. Natalie Portman does her best also, but nope. I think the acting direction here is really awkward also, resulting in an all-around scripted nightmare.
- This leads directly into my second point, which is the romance. This is an entirely unbelievable romantic connection between the two leads. Anakin unabashedly acts like a creep during the first half of the movie, and there is no way you believe a character as self-reliant as Padme would ever fall for him. The sand line gets joked about a lot, but its really bad. Most of the scenes where it is supposed to be part of the patchwork on their love connection are just really, really bad. For example: Anakin tries surfing on a Naboo cow. And lets not even get started on how awkward the fireplace scene is.
- While I said that most of the story outline works, the romance obviously doesn't, nor does the ridiculous thing about Anakin's prescient dreams. I agree that he needed to get back to Tattooine and I like the idea of failing his mother as being driving force for him. But this is a very clumsy way of doing so.
- The CGI is highly pervasive in the movie, and it doesn't hold up well. It really gives the film a plastic look. For example, the scene where Dooku meets with the council of separatists, there are aliens with animatronic costumes and aliens that are fully CGI, and they are very heavily contrasted. It doesn't blend well.
- Going off of this point, the scene in the droid factory could have been a really cool action set piece. There was a lot of potential there. But the CGI, and the way the actors react to it, really make it awful. You can almost see the green screen and treadmills.
- I've mentioned this before, but I don't like the way the Jedi as a whole are handled by the prequels. In the OT, I had this concept of the Jedi as being these wandering, mythical warriors; figures of legend. Both Obi-Wan and Yoda helped to build this idea in my head, as did the general way that people would talk about them. Then the prequels come along and suddenly the Jedi are a bureaucratic body of government...
What a disappointment. Oh, and they die really easily.
- Going off of this point, Yoda in particular doesn't really feel like the Yoda we know from the Dagobah swamp. Yes we all cheered when he got out his light-saber, but looking back it doesn't really seem like a Yoda move. Having him sit around talking with politicians and taking part in board meetings doesn't seem like him either.
That's all I can think to talk about right now. I'm sure there's more, but they will likely come up with later movies.
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Wyldstaar
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Post by Wyldstaar on Aug 2, 2020 11:11:08 GMT -5
- Honestly the basic story isn't that bad. The idea of a civil war brewing and the Jedi investigating various actions around this is a good one. There are some major problems I will highlight below though.
The premise of the story at their most basic level are sound for all three Prequel films. The Phantom Menace- Palpatine manipulates the various corrupt factions of The Republic to engineer an invasion of his homeworld in order to guarantee a vote of no confidence in the current Supreme Chancellor and a sympathy vote that will bring himself into the vacated seat. Attack of the Clones- Palpatine manipulates the various corrupt factions of The Republic to engineer a civil war so that he can gain more power from his emergency powers. Additionally, the numbers of the Jedi will be reduced when many of them are inevitably killed throughout the course of the war. Revenge of the Sith- Palpatine manipulates the various corrupt factions on both sides of the civil war to bring it to an end, while using the popularity this brings to elevate himself to Emperor in the name of future peace. There's nothing wrong with any of these basic premises. The problem is that Emperor Lucas didn't actually create a narrative that matched these premises. In fact, the premises conclude as intended despite everything in the narrative not matching up with the premise. These could have been great movies, if only George had allowed some actual writers to fix his drafts. |
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Neverending
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Post by Neverending on Aug 2, 2020 11:30:45 GMT -5
- Honestly the basic story isn't that bad. The idea of a civil war brewing and the Jedi investigating various actions around this is a good one. There are some major problems I will highlight below though.
The premise of the story at their most basic level are sound for all three Prequel films. The Phantom Menace- Palpatine manipulates the various corrupt factions of The Republic to engineer an invasion of his homeworld in order to guarantee a vote of no confidence in the current Supreme Chancellor and a sympathy vote that will bring himself into the vacated seat. Attack of the Clones- Palpatine manipulates the various corrupt factions of The Republic to engineer a civil war so that he can gain more power from his emergency powers. Additionally, the numbers of the Jedi will be reduced when many of them are inevitably killed throughout the course of the war. Revenge of the Sith- Palpatine manipulates the various corrupt factions on both sides of the civil war to bring it to an end, while using the popularity this brings to elevate himself to Emperor in the name of future peace. There's nothing wrong with any of these basic premises. The problem is that Emperor Lucas didn't actually create a narrative that matched these premises. In fact, the premises conclude as intended despite everything in the narrative not matching up with the premise. These could have been great movies, if only George had allowed some actual writers to fix his drafts. The Clone Wars series fixes a lot of this. Go watch the series finale which takes place simultaneously with Revenge of the Sith and fills in a lot of gaps in the story. |
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IanTheCool
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Post by IanTheCool on Aug 2, 2020 12:27:26 GMT -5
We shouldn't need a children's cartoon to fix things though.
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Neverending
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Post by Neverending on Aug 2, 2020 12:39:57 GMT -5
We shouldn't need a children's cartoon to fix things though. These movies are for kids, sir. |
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IanTheCool
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Post by IanTheCool on Aug 2, 2020 12:56:35 GMT -5
We shouldn't need a children's cartoon to fix things though. These movies are for kids, sir. Touche |
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SnoBorderZero
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Post by SnoBorderZero on Aug 2, 2020 16:47:17 GMT -5
I don't like that either. It's some sort of escape card for them to rewrite major plot holes or poorly explained details.
We all know the novel detailing Palpatine's secret romance and children, ultimately leading to him being Rey's grandfather will come out. And we'll complain about how stupid that plot point is and people will go "Oh, but if you read the novel it all makes sense!"
No, no it doesn't. J.J. Abrams pulled Palpatine out of his ass because the trilogy had nowhere to go and no "canon novels" can erase that.
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Post by IanTheCool on Aug 2, 2020 18:10:44 GMT -5
We all know the novel detailing Palpatine's secret romance and children, ultimately leading to him being Rey's grandfather will come out. And we'll complain about how stupid that plot point is and people will go "Oh, but if you read the novel it all makes sense!" Ugh. isn't that the truth? |
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SnoBorderZero
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Post by SnoBorderZero on Aug 2, 2020 19:30:21 GMT -5
We all know the novel detailing Palpatine's secret romance and children, ultimately leading to him being Rey's grandfather will come out. And we'll complain about how stupid that plot point is and people will go "Oh, but if you read the novel it all makes sense!" Ugh. isn't that the truth? It'll have a foreword from Abrams himself claiming "this is the story we wanted to include in the film, but darn it we just didn't have the time!" Nah, you just made it up and said "fuck it we'll clear it up with a novel later." |
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Neverending
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Post by Neverending on Aug 2, 2020 19:34:05 GMT -5
I don't like that either. It's some sort of escape card for them to rewrite major plot holes or poorly explained details. We all know the novel detailing Palpatine's secret romance and children, ultimately leading to him being Rey's grandfather will come out. And we'll complain about how stupid that plot point is and people will go "Oh, but if you read the novel it all makes sense!" No, no it doesn't. J.J. Abrams pulled Palpatine out of his ass because the trilogy had nowhere to go and no "canon novels" can erase that. Isn’t this different though? The prequels are good ideas that are badly executed while the sequels are just — stupid. Although I’m sure the Mandalorian is gonna fix a lot in the sequels. |
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IanTheCool
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Post by IanTheCool on Aug 2, 2020 19:35:28 GMT -5
There's no fixing. The movie is the movie.
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Wyldstaar
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Post by Wyldstaar on Aug 2, 2020 19:36:39 GMT -5
The Clone Wars series fixes a lot of this. Go watch the series finale which takes place simultaneously with Revenge of the Sith and fills in a lot of gaps in the story. If a movie or trilogy of movies can't stand on their own, and instead require a TV cartoon in order to iron out all of the inconsistencies, then you've done a bad job. The series finale of The Clone Wars aired fifteen years after the release of Revenge of the Sith. |
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Post by Neverending on Aug 2, 2020 19:50:43 GMT -5
The Clone Wars series fixes a lot of this. Go watch the series finale which takes place simultaneously with Revenge of the Sith and fills in a lot of gaps in the story. If a movie or trilogy of movies can't stand on their own, and instead require a TV cartoon in order to iron out all of the inconsistencies, then you've done a bad job. The series finale of The Clone Wars aired fifteen years after the release of Revenge of the Sith. 15 years later... but as the Mandalorian and the Obi Wan series are coming out. In order for those other TV shows to work, you gotta iron out all the shit first. |
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Wyldstaar
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Post by Wyldstaar on Aug 2, 2020 21:20:27 GMT -5
If a movie or trilogy of movies can't stand on their own, and instead require a TV cartoon in order to iron out all of the inconsistencies, then you've done a bad job. The series finale of The Clone Wars aired fifteen years after the release of Revenge of the Sith. 15 years later... but as the Mandalorian and the Obi Wan series are coming out. In order for those other TV shows to work, you gotta iron out all the shit first. Do they? The Original Trilogy is the foundation upon which everything Star Wars is built. It's solid. Everything else is negotiable. Creators cherry pick the bits they like from anything that isn't OT, and ignore the rest. It seems to work pretty well for The Mandalorian. Yes, we got battle droids from the Prequel Trilogy, but there was no reason to dive into the events that led to their attack that's seen throughout the various flashbacks. |
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Post by Neverending on Aug 2, 2020 21:42:49 GMT -5
15 years later... but as the Mandalorian and the Obi Wan series are coming out. In order for those other TV shows to work, you gotta iron out all the shit first. Do they? The Original Trilogy is the foundation upon which everything Star Wars is built. It's solid. Everything else is negotiable. Creators cherry pick the bits they like from anything that isn't OT, and ignore the rest. It seems to work pretty well for The Mandalorian. Yes, we got battle droids from the Prequel Trilogy, but there was no reason to dive into the events that led to their attack that's seen throughout the various flashbacks. The Mandalorian’s were explored in the Clone Wars series and the Darksaber, which was shown in the season finale, was featured in the Clone Wars series. And Ahsoka Tano, played by Rosario Dawson, will be in season 2. These new Disney+ shows are relying heavily on themes/plots/characters introduced in the Clone Wars series. At this point, that show is required viewing in order to understand everything that’s happening. That was made perfectly clear when Darth Maul “randomly” popped up in the Solo movie. Anyone who watched the Clone Wars series knew he was alive and a major character in the universe. He’s even featured heavily in the series finale for Clone Wars. I have no doubt Darth Maul will be a main villain in the Obi-Wan series and they might even include Emilia Clarke’s character from the Solo movie. |
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IanTheCool
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Post by IanTheCool on Aug 3, 2020 7:39:25 GMT -5
I think I'm understanding you more.
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Deexan
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Post by Deexan on Aug 7, 2020 22:25:33 GMT -5
When you start your highlights with Sound Design you know you're on a hiding to nothing.
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IanTheCool
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Post by IanTheCool on Aug 8, 2020 9:12:12 GMT -5
I mean, its what stood out...
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Post by IanTheCool on Sept 27, 2020 10:00:21 GMT -5
Continuing on with my rewatch, we go back to the beginning! Um, sort of. Really more in the middle...
The Phantom Menace
I still remember the hype around this movie and how excited teenage Ian was to see this movie. I avoided knowing too much, but of course images of Amadala and Darth Maul would make their way to my retinas, which only amplified my anticipation. And it worked. I was very into this movie. It was only over the next few years I began to see the flaws and the severe gap in quality between this movie and the originals I loved so much. Still, its not all bad...
Highlights
- I really like most of the ship/vehicle design, which fit in the universe but are still their own thing. I especially like the trade federation donut ships, the tanks, and Sebulba's pod racer.
- Liam Neeson is the saving grace for this movie in terms of acting. Its not as though he's going full out, but he does provide the film with a level of gravitas and calm that really grounds it. He also provides us with a very clear picture of what a Jedi in the olden days would be like. I have a lot of issues with what the Jedi would be revealed as in the prequels, but Qui-Gon stands a great example of the promise we were given of what Jedi were.
- Not quite to the same level as Neeson, but I also think Pernilla August playing Anakin's mom anchors her end as well.
- The pod race, despite many of its sillier aspects, is a lot of fun. Its kind of cool that they centered their middle act around this big set piece, Ben-hur style.
- Watto
- I like Darth Maul as a villain. Yes he doesn't have any character depth like Kylo Ren (or Vader eventually). But he works as a great antagonist in the same way that the Terminator does.
- The galactic senate looked pretty cool. Oh, so did the lake monsters. I really liked the lake monsters.
- The last act of this movie really brings it together. Having the four aspects of the battle interlocking is certainly nothing new, and does feel telegraphed when all four parts take a downturn at the same time and then all have their fortunes turn again at the same time, but it still provides us with a clear, exciting climax. Especially...
- The lightsaber duel. People came out of this movie claiming that this was the best lightsaber duel. I don't buy into that, as it doesn't have the emotional context as Empire and Jedi, but as far as choreography goes it is really a wonder to watch. One part I appreciated much more is how great the fight gets when Obi-Wan engages Maul alone after Qui-Gon is down. McGregor really cranks up the intensity and the fight gets even better at the end.
Downfalls
- This movie's biggest problem is the level of silliness throughout, mostly by a particular beloved character named Jar Jar. I know, its incredibly cliche to pick on poor Mr. Binks at this point, but after having just watched it again... its justified. its not just him though, there is a lot of goofy, juvenile stuff in this movie. I know that Lucas' defense of this movie has always been that Star Wars is for children. But I've never really bought that. Its true, Star Wars is a kid's movie, and thats how I came to know it and love it. But "movies for kids" isn't a blanket statement that covers the age gamut, and TPM is at a whole different level of childishness as any other Star Wars film. Yes, Return of the Jedi had Ewoks. But the Ewoks didn't get their tongue stuck in lasers or say pewwwsa after an animal farts on them. It didn't have the ewoks win battles by bumbling around and killing things by getting their foot stuck; they didn't have droids that acted like the three stooges, and Wicket didn't have friends acting excited in a way no kid ever acted.
- Sorry, I know that last point was long, but its a pretty big complaint and really brings the movie down a lot. I would say that the majority of problems people have with Phantom Menace derives from this. There is an argument to be said that this is the one SW movie for much younger kids, and I can see that. But to claim its on the same level as the other movies, especially when two movies from now Anakin is going to kill younglings (puts fist in mouth), it just doesn't gel.
- I've complained about the Jedi before, and Attack of the Clones sees a lot more of this, but the council never really sat right with me.
- The fake Amidala storyline is really pointless. There is no reason for her to sometimes be the queen and sometimes not. In fact, its detrimental as it is a barrier to more character development of Padme and add a lot of story beats and confusion that doesn't need to be there.
- So much of the acting and dialogue is cringe-worthy. Its so stiff and wooden; especially with Queen Amidala. Again, this might stem from the stupid decision to hide her identity. But its hard to draw in audiences when lines are delivered with no emotion whatsoever.
- The decision to have Anakin build C-3PO is really dumb. Its this weird choice of convenient, serendipitous nepotism that makes no sense.
Special Editions Alert!
- Though technically the SE's came out for TPM, for future releases they changes the Yoda puppet to the CGI Yoda we see in Episodes 2 and 3. It does feel more consistent and does look better than the puppet, as I never felt the TPM puppet came even close to the original. That being said, they still shouldn't have changed it. Its too big of a visual change. It was a puppet when it was released, and so it should remain.
Current Re-ranking List
So now with my re-ranking list. This was a tough one. The battle rages one: which is worse, episode 1 or episode 2. TPM has many of the same problems as Clones, but they are amplified in Clones. Phantom Menace does have the childishness problem though, which is pretty huge. But I think the last act pulls Ep1 into the lead slightly.
1. Empire Strikes Back 2. The Last Jedi 3. The Force Awakens 4. The Phantom Menace 5. Attack of the Clones
Current Dismemberment Tally: 5 (none in this movie, though a torso does get cut in half)
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IanTheCool
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Post by IanTheCool on Nov 8, 2020 9:26:41 GMT -5
And now we come to what used to be the final film, but really a middle film, but now is somewhere near the front third... or is it back third? You know what I mean, its...
Revenge of the Sith
Highlights
- The structure of this film is actually quite strong. The first half sets up Anakin as a hero Jedi with strong relationships. Doubts and misgivings creep up throughout and increase until his turn. The turn (reasons notwithstanding, but I'll get there) works with a lot of emotional impact because of this structure. People make fun of Padme's "You're breaking my heart" line, but I think its actually quite powerful in the moment, and we finally start to see some of Portman's talent shine through.
- The opening pan down into the giant space battle wowed me in theaters, so I still always eagerly anticipate it.
- Ewan McGregor gave his strongest Obi-Wan performance here. We was fun when he needed to be, dramatic when he needed, and gave the film a stable center.
- I really like that lizard creature Obi-Wan rides in Utapau.
- My favourite moment of this film is the shot of Vader's first breath. It still works.
- General Grevious is a pretty cool new villain. He fits in the world but has a unique sense about him. He's established well, though he hasn't been in the other films, and doesn't overreach in importance.
- John William's is off the hook here. His score is certainly able to meet the heights of drama reached during this period of the galaxy's history.
- McDiarmand's performance can be quite over-the-top in many places, but its actually quite fun. He really does become the Emperor here, and I think a lot of the over-the-top parts fit that, which McDiarmand understands and isn't afraid to do.
- The showdown between Obi-Wan and Anakin is still solid. High ground notwithstanding.
- I really like the final montage of the Skywalker family at the end. A great way to cap the trilogy off.
Downfalls
- While the romance between Anakin and Padme is improved here, they still have that awful "love is blind" scene on the balcony. Its so bad it rivals the "I hate sand" scene on the balcony in Clones. It fact, these two should probably just stay away from balconies altogether.
- It can be argued that the entire reason for this trilogy existing is to see the tragedy of Anakin;s turn play out. The problem is that the reason for his turning is too nebulous. He sees a vision of Padme dying and wants to save her? I know its likely that Sidious probably force Anakin to have these visions (and Snoke's powers in Last Jedi seem to confirm this is something that can happen). But its still a weak reason. Luckily there are other factors, like his growing mistrust of the Jedi, etc. But it still feels like the reason for his turn needs to be much stronger.
- The Wookie planet battle was pointless to the overall plot, but I will argue it helped to establish the war as a widespread event. But what really gets me is having Chewbacca in the command center with Yoda. I'm okay with seeing Chewie here, but this is a bit serendipitous. Maybe as a short cameo. But to actually be pals with Yoda is a bit much.
- There's still some pretty stiffly delivered dialogue. Hayden Christenson and Sam Jackson seem to be the biggest culprits, but Jimmy Smits too.
- Okay, I know that we needed to get Vader to a point where he becomes very villainous. But do we really have to have him killing children (I'm sorry, I mean "younglings")? Remember how two movies before Lucas defended the goofy Jar Jar and pit droid antics by claiming these are movies for kids? Hard to hold that argument here.
Current Re-ranking List
1. Empire Strikes Back 2. Return of the Jedi 3. The Last Jedi 4. The Force Awakens 5. Revene of the Sith 6. The Phantom Menace 7. Attack of the Clones
Current Dismemberment Tally: 14 (ROTS had a record setting 8 limbs lost!) Deexan
After watching the entire prequel trilogy again, I think this re-watch has helped me reconcile my relationship with these films. I've come back around to being okay with their existence and appreciating them for different reasons than the original trilogy. However there is still one Star Wars film coming up which will be much more difficult to reconcile...
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