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Post by Neverending on May 21, 2018 13:09:35 GMT -5
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Post by Neverending on Jun 3, 2018 12:41:47 GMT -5
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Post by Dracula on Jun 7, 2018 17:36:18 GMT -5
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PG Cooper
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Post by PG Cooper on Jun 7, 2018 21:40:55 GMT -5
Well, my province just elected infamous crack addict Rob Ford's Trumpian brother as premier.
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Post by Neverending on Jun 9, 2018 7:57:02 GMT -5
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Doomsday
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Post by Doomsday on Jun 9, 2018 13:53:59 GMT -5
I'll bite if only because we just had an election here in CA. Bill Maher is a target of people on the right for obvious reasons but he's also a target on the left for one reason; he tells people on the left what they don't want to hear and that is that people are done with them. They claim it's because Maher has said bigoted stuff but it's not any worse than what other people have said lately while getting a total pass. Conservatives are sounding off about Samantha Bee and will continue to do so because it's a great example of simple hypocrisy. I'm not talking about Roseanne, I haven't heard of anyone who isn't crazy who went to bat for her. I'm talking about how someone like Laura Ingraham, an inflammatory idiot Fox News host, NEEDED to be boycotted because she posted a mean tweet about David Hogg. Samantha Bee though, she's different. Joy Reid, a woman whose old blog was found to have had more than enough homophobic and anti-Semitic jargon on it to get any conservative fired ten times over, she's different too so she can stay. They're all different, it's Laura Ingraham and her mean tweet who's the enemy! It's all bullshit through and through and the thing is people pick up on this. If anyone, anyone had called Michelle Obama or one of her daughters the c-word on air how many minutes would it be until that person's career was over? 'Ohhhh but Samantha Bee was talking about Ivanka, it's different, she deserves it!' It's always different, isn't it? I hate that I'm defending Laura Ingraham but no one except the most partisan people would say that she crossed the line while Samantha Bee's comment was A-okay (and many people did). I bring this up because it's just another glaring example of why liberals are losing and unless they change their strategy will probably continue to do so. I think it was Trey Parker who said 'I can't stand conservatives but I fucking hate liberals.' More and more people are starting to share that sentiment. They shouldn't, after all there's a lot of stuff they back that a majority of people support; higher minimum wage, healthcare, raising taxes on the super wealthy and ending the demonization of immigrants, those are things most Americans get behind (refer to the link above). The problem is they don't talk about those things, or if they do they only pay it lip service. They would rather go toe to toe talking about white privilege, inherent bias which implies that even the best of us are all secretly, unconsciously racist, diversity at the Oscars or how respecting someone's pronoun is the most important thing we can do. They think those are the important issues because they bend to the will of internet crusaders and hardcore activists who would rather shout you off a stage rather than let you say anything at all. They did it to Bernie Sanders. No joke, there was a headline yesterday titled 'Why Anthony Bourdain’s Life Is a Lesson for White Men of Privilege on How to Be an Ally.' That's a real headline. The other problem too is that there isn't a lot of room nowadays for middle of the road, non-extreme liberals. I personally know a number of people who are Democrats but are seriously considering becoming independents if they haven't done so already. They don't hear anyone talk about the issues that are important to them and can see the extreme wing of the party taking over. Yes yes I know, you can say the same about Republicans and them bending over backwards to cater to evangelicals while selling everyone out any chance they get, I could write three paragraphs on them too but they're not the ones who have been behind the 8 ball for the better part of a decade. Now I know what you're doing. You're probably typing furiously about how wrong I am, how everything I said is BS, and maybe even saying 'what about Trump?' I don't care about Trump. I didn't vote for him nor would I ever vote for him. I think he's just as big of an imbecile as you guys do. My interest lies in what people choose to do in order to get their message across. Say what you will about Republicans but when they lose an election they hunker down, go back to the drawing board, see what went wrong and make a new message. Whether you think that message is right or wrong is up to you. Democrats on the other hand have made it pretty apparent as of late that if they lose elections it's because something is wrong with American voters. It's not them, it's you. Why aren't you on board? Oh that's right, you're probably a racist, shocking. I've said this a few times but it's amazing that they haven't learned anything over the past few years of repeatedly getting their asses kicked. Instead they just double down again and again hoping for different results. News flash: labeling people who aren't racists as racists isn't going to get them to vote with you. I'm not sure how many more elections have to go by before that sinks in, from the looks of it at least a couple. I'm also not sure how 2018 is going to go but Democrats think there's this 'blue wave' coming. Maybe there is but I'll just say take a look at the polls right now. The Republicans are pretty much neck and neck with Democrats. How amazing is that? Even Republicans don't like Trump, he's one of the least popular Presidents ever and Democrats still can't get their shit together and get out in front of this guy. Seriously for all of you who are Democrats, how aren't you not burning down your own party? No joke, at this point Trump will probably get reelected. What's the response going to be? Are you going to talk about policy and how you're going to help the everyday American? Or are you just going to keep calling them bigots and making fun of Trump's tweets while thinking you can shame them into voting with you? We all know how the latter turns out and it looks like yet again that's going to be the Democrat's strategy. Oy.
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Post by Dracula on Jun 9, 2018 14:27:16 GMT -5
Conservatives are sounding off about Samantha Bee and will continue to do so because it's a great example of simple hypocrisy. I'm not talking about Roseanne, I haven't heard of anyone who isn't crazy who went to bat for her. I'm talking about how someone like Laura Ingraham, an inflammatory idiot Fox News host, NEEDED to be boycotted because she posted a mean tweet about David Hogg. Samantha Bee though, she's different. Joy Reid, a woman whose old blog was found to have had more than enough homophobic and anti-Semitic jargon on it to get any conservative fired ten times over, she's different too so she can stay. They're all different, it's Laura Ingraham and her mean tweet who's the enemy! It's all bullshit through and through and the thing is people pick up on this. If anyone, anyone had called Michelle Obama or one of her daughters the c-word on air how many minutes would it be until that person's career was over? 'Ohhhh but Samantha Bee was talking about Ivanka, it's different, she deserves it!' It's always different, isn't it? It is different. Ivanka Trump isn't just the president's daughter, she's an official senior advisor to the president and is just as open to criticism and mockery as anyone else in Trump's administration. She's also a feckless ****. As far as Joy Reid goes... I don't know who that is. As far as Laura Ingraham goes, that basically seems to be pretty standard gotcha situation and neither party is exactly exempt from doing that. Trump calls for mainstream journalists to be fired over nothing on a nearly daily basis and whether you like it or not he is the voice of the Republican party. As for most of the rest of the stuff you're talking about, well, almost all of that is coming from activists and internet journalists not actual elected officials. Actual politicians within the Democratic party are generally pretty restrained and moderate almost to the point of frustration. Republicans circa 2018, by contrast, seem to walk more or less in lockstep with the crazies, especially Trump himself.
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Post by PG Cooper on Jun 9, 2018 15:02:32 GMT -5
I'll bite if only because we just had an election here in CA. Bill Maher is a target of people on the right for obvious reasons but he's also a target on the left for one reason; he tells people on the left what they don't want to hear and that is that people are done with them. They claim it's because Maher has said bigoted stuff but it's not any worse than what other people have said lately while getting a total pass. Conservatives are sounding off about Samantha Bee and will continue to do so because it's a great example of simple hypocrisy. I'm not talking about Roseanne, I haven't heard of anyone who isn't crazy who went to bat for her. I'm talking about how someone like Laura Ingraham, an inflammatory idiot Fox News host, NEEDED to be boycotted because she posted a mean tweet about David Hogg. Samantha Bee though, she's different. Big difference between mocking a white house official who hides under the veil of being a voice of reason and mocking a teenager who survived a school shooting. You're cherry-picking liberals here, as many are adamantly against Reid at this point. The Obama kids didn't have top positions in the White House, and they were teenagers. Not what white privilege means. So? Don't necessairly disagree with any of this, particularly the frustration that the Democrats still seem to be in a state of disarray, and thinking politically, shaming the 'other side' isn't a good strategy. That all said, as a nobody on the internet whose two cents don't really matter, I don't have much hesitation claiming that a great majority of Trump voters are, at least to some degree, racist. If someone's willing to stomach his hateful shit because they feel like they'll be okay in the long run, then yes, there is a racist dimension to that.
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Doomsday
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Post by Doomsday on Jun 9, 2018 16:19:29 GMT -5
It is different. Ivanka Trump isn't just the president's daughter, she's an official senior advisor to the president and is just as open to criticism and mockery as anyone else in Trump's administration. She's also a feckless ****. But this is what I mean though. It's about holding yourself to a different standard. Is calling someone the c-word a good thing or a bad thing? If it's bad for some but okay for others then you're going to lose people. Bee was right in that she was disappointed that people were talking about her name calling rather than the issue she was talking about, missing immigrant children. She chose to use a highly offensive word to most people then people found themselves painted into a corner defending it. At the end of the day all this stupid controversy did was make Democrats look bad. It won nobody over to their side. Joy Reid is a host on MSNBC who said some stupid stuff on a blog from way back when. She said she was hacked but when it was proven she wasn't she said she had amnesia. I didn't read all of this but it should give you the quick and dirty details. www.vox.com/policy-and-politics/2018/4/27/17286392/joy-reid-msnbc-lgbtq-gay-hackBig difference between mocking a white house official who hides under the veil of being a voice of reason and mocking a teenager who survived a school shooting. The point is, do you think calling her the c-word, one of the most offensive terms you can call a woman, is fine? Can I call Hillary the c-word? She's done a lot of shit that I don't like. Or would that be crossing the line? You're cherry-picking liberals here, as many are adamantly against Reid at this point. If only they were as upset about Reid making jokes about a closeted gay man as they were about Ingraham mentioning how David Hogg didn't get into a couple schools. The Obama kids didn't have top positions in the White House, and they were teenagers. I agree, I would never say that about them nor would I say it about anybody regardless of where they sit politically. I also should mention that anyone, Samantha Bee or otherwise, calling someone the c-word in a comedic fashion is the lowest standard of comedy you can hit. Not what white privilege means. But it is what inherent bias means. I don't have much hesitation claiming that a great majority of Trump voters are, at least to some degree, racist. Do you have any evidence for this? Any statistic or study? Because it's a very huge generalization you're making. It would be like me saying 'a great majority of Obama voters only voted for him because he's black.' If someone's willing to stomach his hateful shit because they feel like they'll be okay in the long run, then yes, there is a racist dimension to that. I would say it's also due to the fact that the only person less popular and likable than Donald Trump happened to be the Democratic nominee. The Democrats did themselves no favors by nominating someone who half the country already despised before she even decided to run.
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Post by Dracula on Jun 9, 2018 16:39:48 GMT -5
I think what you're rather intentionally overlooking is that Samantha Bee is a woman and that gives her a certain degee of license to throw around gendered insults in much the way Larry Whilmore was more or less able to call Obama a "n***a" at the White House correspondents dinner. I'm sure that if Ann Coulter had decided to call Nancy Pelosi a c-word most liberals would roll their eyes but I doubt it would be career ending for her or even be all that surprising.
As for the evidence that Trump voters are racist... well, they voted for the openly racist candidate, its not exactly rocket science. Trump's policies and rhetoric more than plainly establish what he's about and if you're going to sign on to that you've pretty much declared what you're about. Do you need statistics about the kind of people who voted for Storm Thurmond and George Wallace while we're at it?
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Post by Doomsday on Jun 9, 2018 17:23:27 GMT -5
I think what you're rather intentionally overlooking is that Samantha Bee is a woman and that gives her a certain degee of license to throw around gendered insults in much the way Larry Whilmore was more or less able to call Obama a "n***a" at the White House correspondents dinner. I'm sure that if Ann Coulter had decided to call Nancy Pelosi a c-word most liberals would roll their eyes but I doubt it would be career ending for her or even be all that surprising. I think that's a fair point, however I disagree that Ann Coulter could get away with calling any prominent Democrat that word. I think many of the same people defending Samantha Bee would be calling for Coulter's head. I could be wrong and frankly I hope we never need to find out. As for the evidence that Trump voters are racist... well, they voted for the openly racist candidate, its not exactly rocket science. Trump's policies and rhetoric more than plainly establish what he's about and if you're going to sign on to that you've pretty much declared what you're about. Do you need statistics about the kind of people who voted for Storm Thurmond and George Wallace while we're at it? Like I said previously, I would point to liberals going too hard left and losing touch with mainstream Americans as well as Hillary's unpopularity being the main factors in Trump being President. Do you think we'd be having this conversation had Joe Biden been the nominee?
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Post by docstop on Jun 9, 2018 19:04:23 GMT -5
Conservative party won majority vote here on Ontario. It was well past the Liberal party's best before date.
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Post by Dracula on Jun 9, 2018 20:22:13 GMT -5
I think what you're rather intentionally overlooking is that Samantha Bee is a woman and that gives her a certain degee of license to throw around gendered insults in much the way Larry Whilmore was more or less able to call Obama a "n***a" at the White House correspondents dinner. I'm sure that if Ann Coulter had decided to call Nancy Pelosi a c-word most liberals would roll their eyes but I doubt it would be career ending for her or even be all that surprising. I think that's a fair point, however I disagree that Ann Coulter could get away with calling any prominent Democrat that word. I think many of the same people defending Samantha Bee would be calling for Coulter's head. I could be wrong and frankly I hope we never need to find out. As for the evidence that Trump voters are racist... well, they voted for the openly racist candidate, its not exactly rocket science. Trump's policies and rhetoric more than plainly establish what he's about and if you're going to sign on to that you've pretty much declared what you're about. Do you need statistics about the kind of people who voted for Storm Thurmond and George Wallace while we're at it? Like I said previously, I would point to liberals going too hard left and losing touch with mainstream Americans as well as Hillary's unpopularity being the main factors in Trump being President. Do you think we'd be having this conversation had Joe Biden been the nominee? I do. Hilary Clinton's "unpopularity" seemed to be almost entirely driven by bullshit trumped up scandals like Benghazi and the Email server. Had Biden or Sanders been the candidate I'm sure the same people would have dreamt up some other excuse to pretend to hate him and vote for the racist jackass. As for the liberals going too hard left, well, the facts on the ground don't support that. The Democrats have been FAR more centrist than the Republicans by pretty much any conceivable metric. Hilary Clinton herself wasn't exactly hard left, and neither was Obama.
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Post by PG Cooper on Jun 9, 2018 22:31:10 GMT -5
Big difference between mocking a white house official who hides under the veil of being a voice of reason and mocking a teenager who survived a school shooting. The point is, do you think calling her the c-word, one of the most offensive terms you can call a woman, is fine? Can I call Hillary the c-word? She's done a lot of shit that I don't like. Or would that be crossing the line? Yeah I do. I don't give a shit. If Ivanka acts like a **** she should be called out as such. If people wanna use the same word against Hillary or whoever, fine. I might disagree with why they're angry in the first place, but the word doesn't bother me. Again, I'm not defending Reid, but publicly mocking the survivor of a school shooting is pretty fucking low and the amount of shit this kid faces on a daily basis is quite franky insane. The fact that Trump was quite openly and pretty well non-apologetically racist, and people still voted for him anyway. Just because someone doesn't walk around holding racialized resentment does not mean they don't have some racist inclinations. If someone hears Trump refers to Mexicans as criminals and rapists, or say that Islam hates America, or allude to how in the good ol' days protesters would have their head smashed in by the cops, and thinks, "Well, I don't agree with any of those things...but, I think he'll do okay by me" then yes, there is an element of racism there. Racism only means the belief in the superiority of one race over others. If someone is willing to throw many other races under the bus for their own benefit, than yeah, there is a race element that can't be ignored. And to clarify, I'm not saying all Trump voters did so because they hate other races. What I'm saying is that voting for an openly racist candidate does mean, at some level, acknowledging that other people will suffer from such an election because of their race/ethnicity and doing it anyway. I don't exactly disagree, but I also feel the whole "lesser of two evils"/"but Hillary..." thing has been ridiculous from the word go. Yes, Hillary is far from a perfect candidate, but the scandals associated to her were such non-events that were somehow put on a pedestal is being somehow equal the myriad of reasons not to vote for Trump that this argument only gets so far with me. Yeah, I can get disliking Hillary, just like I can get being annoyed by overly zealous liberals or college students or Tumblr feminists or any other "extremist" left belief, but to use that to justify voting for a man who has inspired genuine acts of extremist hatred and violence is ridiculous.
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Post by Doomsday on Jun 10, 2018 8:44:14 GMT -5
Yeah I do. I don't give a shit. If Ivanka acts like a **** she should be called out as such. If people wanna use the same word against Hillary or whoever, fine. I might disagree with why they're angry in the first place, but the word doesn't bother me. Well at least you're consistent. I can't argue with that. As for everything else, I still think that’s an oversimplification in order to label people who enabled a particular result that you didn’t like. To me calling someone a racist is one of the biggest charges you can level at someone and if you do it you had better be able to back it up. I just don’t buy ‘Well you voted for one person over the other therefore racist.’ I need more than that. Lots of Democrats didn’t turn out for Hillary who voted for Obama, in fact that’s what lost her the election more than anything, wouldn’t they be just as culpable? There are myriad reasons people vote the way they do. I'm sure many of them saw a businessman who knew first hand how to help small businesses, who would lower taxes and ease business regulations. There are those that vote straight down party lines regardless of the quality of the candidate. There are tons of Democrats who do the same. I'm sure they saw a loudmouth who they thought was putting on an act. I'm also sure that there are people who don't like immigrants or non-white people and thought Trump would throw them all out, I don't deny that there are at least some of those. I presume that there are lots of people who voted for Trump for lots of reasons and I don't think throwing a blanket over all of them and call them racist is in any way accurate. As I stated earlier, if I said 'all Obama voters only voted for him because he's black' it would be a pretty offensive statement. Are there people who voted for him solely because of his skin color? Definitely, but it's not all of them. And like I've said for the past 18 months, saying that people who voted for Trump are racist or at the least motivated by racist tendencies, that’s not going to win anyone over. You can’t shame people into voting with you. In fact the opposite is going to happen, it’s going to send them into the arms of the other side. It's why Republicans by and large don't call Democrats 'baby killers.' No one would warm to that. There’s a reason why Hillary herself said her ‘basket of deplorables’ line was one of the biggest mistake of her candidacy. Likewise look at Romney when he was caught on tape saying that ‘47% of people don’t pay taxes’ which people interpreted as him calling them freeloaders. Insulting the people you’re trying to sway never works out. To me that’s common sense but other people feel like it’s necessary, like it’s some noble pursuit. Let me put it this way, even if every person who voted for Trump was a bona fide racist, most would never consider themselves racist. People don’t respond well to that as you might guess. Therefore you would need to confront them with ideas, not labels. And here’s the kicker, there are tons of ideas that Democrats embrace that are popular with a big percentage of Americans. I said that in my very first post yesterday. That’s how you’re going to get those people onto your side. When I hear stuff like ‘Republicans are all racist’ or ‘Russia!’ or whatever I immediately tune out and assume those people have no ideas, that’s all they have to argue with. It’s the same when I hear Republicans shouting ‘Soros! Soros!’ I assume that guy's got a whole lotta nothing. So in short, as someone who is no Democrat but has voted for Democrats in the past and would do so again if given a reason, I feel like Democrats should lose the labeling and ‘Racist! Bigot!’ talk. It has only made you lose voters and lose elections. Start presenting ideas that Americans across the aisle like. That’s what will help you win. Or keep going with the racist talk, tell me how that goes (hint: it'll go the same way it's been going since 2010). This is a conversation I’ve been having with people for a couple years now and I wish I didn’t have to have it anymore. Person: Man, we Democrats keep losing. We’ve lost almost any and all power at literally every level of government. Why aren’t more people voting with us? Me: Maybe stop telling people whose votes you’re trying to get that they’re racist. Person: Nope. You’re wrong. Me: Okay...
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Post by Dracula on Jun 10, 2018 9:14:30 GMT -5
As for everything else, I still think that’s an oversimplification in order to label people who enabled a particular result that you didn’t like. To me calling someone a racist is one of the biggest charges you can level at someone and if you do it you had better be able to back it up. I just don’t buy ‘Well you voted for one person over the other therefore racist.’ I need more than that. Lots of Democrats didn’t turn out for Hillary who voted for Obama, in fact that’s what lost her the election more than anything, wouldn’t they be just as culpable? There are myriad reasons people vote the way they do. I'm sure many of them saw a businessman who knew first hand how to help small businesses, who would lower taxes and ease business regulations. There are those that vote straight down party lines regardless of the quality of the candidate. There are tons of Democrats who do the same. I'm sure they saw a loudmouth who they thought was putting on an act. I'm also sure that there are people who don't like immigrants or non-white people and thought Trump would throw them all out, I don't deny that there are at least some of those. I presume that there are lots of people who voted for Trump for lots of reasons and I don't think throwing a blanket over all of them and call them racist is in any way accurate. As I stated earlier, if I said 'all Obama voters only voted for him because he's black' it would be a pretty offensive statement. Are there people who voted for him solely because of his skin color? Definitely, but it's not all of them. If these people were voting for some kind of George W. Bush/Mitt Romney type Republican who seemed to have a semi-reasoned platform and kept the race baiting to dog whistles and whatnot I could buy that, but it is impossible to listen to Donald Trump's rhetoric and not realize that you're voting for racial animus. Even setting aside the fact that he's an inexperienced candidate with incoherent and often contradictory economic proposals that any thinking person should not have seen as a solution to anything, the mere fact that you're willing to sell out the well being of non-white populations for more low paying manufacturing jobs says something about them regardless. Like, I'm sure there were plenty of people in Germany who genuinely thought they were only supporting Hitler because he'd keep the trains running on time and make Germany great again, but the fact that they were willing to empower a vehement antisemite who posed a mortal danger to millions of people makes them just as culpable. I realize that's an extreme example but I think it illustrates what we're talking about. And like I've said for the past 18 months, saying that people who voted for Trump are racist or at the least motivated by racist tendencies, that’s not going to win anyone over. You can’t shame people into voting with you. In fact the opposite is going to happen, it’s going to send them into the arms of the other side. It's why Republicans by and large don't call Democrats 'baby killers.' No one would warm to that. There’s a reason why Hillary herself said her ‘basket of deplorables’ line was one of the biggest mistake of her candidacy. Likewise look at Romney when he was caught on tape saying that ‘47% of people don’t pay taxes’ which people interpreted as him calling them freeloaders. Insulting the people you’re trying to sway never works out. To me that’s common sense but other people feel like it’s necessary, like it’s some noble pursuit. Let me put it this way, even if every person who voted for Trump was a bona fide racist, most would never consider themselves racist. People don’t respond well to that as you might guess. Therefore you would need to confront them with ideas, not labels. And here’s the kicker, there are tons of ideas that Democrats embrace that are popular with a big percentage of Americans. I said that in my very first post yesterday. That’s how you’re going to get those people onto your side. When I hear stuff like ‘Republicans are all racist’ or ‘Russia!’ or whatever I immediately tune out and assume those people have no ideas, that’s all they have to argue with. It’s the same when I hear Republicans shouting ‘Soros! Soros!’ I assume that guy's got a whole lotta nothing. So in short, as someone who is no Democrat but has voted for Democrats in the past and would do so again if given a reason, I feel like Democrats should lose the labeling and ‘Racist! Bigot!’ talk. It has only made you lose voters and lose elections. Start presenting ideas that Americans across the aisle like. That’s what will help you win. Or keep going with the racist talk, tell me how that goes (hint: it'll go the same way it's been going since 2010). This is a conversation I’ve been having with people for a couple years now and I wish I didn’t have to have it anymore. Person: Man, we Democrats keep losing. We’ve lost almost any and all power at literally every level of government. Why aren’t more people voting with us? Me: Maybe stop telling people whose votes you’re trying to get that they’re racist. Person: Nope. You’re wrong. Me: Okay... Look man, at a certain point you need to call a spade a spade. Are we supposed to just spend the next two years pretending that racism doesn't exist, that law enforcement is fair to people of color, that Donald Trump followers are just "economically anxious," and that white privilege isn't a force in society? If people are going to be that easily triggered there's really not much we can do about it. Actual Democrat politicians are by and large extremely disciplined, even that "deplorables" line was extremely charitable if you actually look up the full quote, but if you expect everyone else in the world to just pretend the issues they see don't exist simply because it's politically correct that's just never going to happen.
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PG Cooper
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Post by PG Cooper on Jun 10, 2018 9:21:54 GMT -5
As for everything else, I still think that’s an oversimplification in order to label people who enabled a particular result that you didn’t like. To me calling someone a racist is one of the biggest charges you can level at someone and if you do it you had better be able to back it up. I just don’t buy ‘Well you voted for one person over the other therefore racist.’ I need more than that. Lots of Democrats didn’t turn out for Hillary who voted for Obama, in fact that’s what lost her the election more than anything, wouldn’t they be just as culpable? There are myriad reasons people vote the way they do. I'm sure many of them saw a businessman who knew first hand how to help small businesses, who would lower taxes and ease business regulations. There are those that vote straight down party lines regardless of the quality of the candidate. There are tons of Democrats who do the same. I'm sure they saw a loudmouth who they thought was putting on an act. I'm also sure that there are people who don't like immigrants or non-white people and thought Trump would throw them all out, I don't deny that there are at least some of those. I presume that there are lots of people who voted for Trump for lots of reasons and I don't think throwing a blanket over all of them and call them racist is in any way accurate. As I stated earlier, if I said 'all Obama voters only voted for him because he's black' it would be a pretty offensive statement. Are there people who voted for him solely because of his skin color? Definitely, but it's not all of them. My argument is not that everyone who voted for Trump did so entirely based on race. My argument is that voting for Trump, particularly as a white person, does require, at least on some level, acknowledging that one is putting a racist in power who will probably enact policies that actively hurt people of other races and doing so anyway because one feels it'll ultimately be good for themselves. There are elements of racism there and there's really no way around that. Race may not have been a primary reason for voting Trump for many, hell it may not have been a reason at all, but it's still an evident factor inherent to Trump and I don't think it can be ignored just because someone who voted for him does not share such racial resentment. They still gave the keys to someone who does. As for voting for Trump because he seemed like a good businessman who would help the working class; I've always had trouble buying this argument. The dude built his empire on fucking over working class people and literally would shit in a toilet made of gold. How anyone could think he could represent and help out the common man is insane to me. I feel justified too, given that Trump's choices regarding taxes and the cutting of Obamacare to favour the upperclass while actively fucking over many of the working class voters who helped elect Trump. And for what it's worth, I take no glee in that fact (It may well happen on a smaller scale in my home province given who we just elected Premier). Yes, the "basket of deplorables" comment was a mistake. Granted, I share the sentiment, but as someone running for office it was a stupid thing to say. And if I were a politician or some sort of public figure, I'd maybe be more hesitant about talking so openly about how race and racism played a role in the election, but I'm not, so I have no problem being more honest about what I think happened. There needs to be a place for people to critically discuss the extent to which racist inclinations effected Trump's election and I refuse to ignore that because I don't want to hurt a Trump voter's feelings. And I agree with your comment that many bonafide racists don't consider themselves as such, but that's exactly why this needs to be talked about. Because these feelings are deeply rooted in our culture (I'm including my country in this too). Would people naturally respond to being called a racist and a bigot naturally feel insulted and defensive? Sure, I know I would. But when the response to this is to go and elect the racist and bigot and say, "You made me do this" then, well, if the shoe fits. Short version: Yes, I agree Democratic politicians need to do a better job getting their ideas out there and not dwelling on divisive lines, but I do not agree that discussing the role of race should be off the table when it is evidently a factor and ignoring that does not help.
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thebtskink
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Post by thebtskink on Jun 10, 2018 9:44:19 GMT -5
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Doomsday
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Post by Doomsday on Jun 10, 2018 11:09:21 GMT -5
Look man, at a certain point you need to call a spade a spade. I know, and that that's what's been happening. All I'm saying is that it hasn't worked out very well and it might be time for a new strategy. That's my whole entire point.
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Dracula
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Post by Dracula on Jun 10, 2018 11:22:40 GMT -5
Look man, at a certain point you need to call a spade a spade. I know, and that that's what's been happening. All I'm saying is that it hasn't worked out very well and it might be time for a new strategy. That's my whole entire point. So what's your alternate strategy? How do we fight racism without acknowledging it exists?
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Ramplate
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Post by Ramplate on Jun 10, 2018 12:30:59 GMT -5
My 2¢ I think everyone on the very left and very right should just chill. They're the ones who are all really making a big stink about every little nitpicky slight. There are some things that are definitely out of bounds - like racist comments (unless it's about your own race) Most people who have called someone a four letter word, have lost sponsors and viewers, and have given apologies. And, really i think that's all that's really called for - depending on the audience and the hour, as well as the tone. In humor - especially political humor, you'll have that. I don't think we have seen any comedians recently who have crossed that verbal line beyond an apology. Ok that's all for the moment
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Ramplate
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Post by Ramplate on Jun 10, 2018 17:00:10 GMT -5
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Post by Wyldstaar on Jun 10, 2018 18:37:01 GMT -5
I went to see Won't You Be My Neighbor? on Friday, a documentary about lifelong Republican and ordained minister Fred Rogers. In it was included a clip from Fox & Friends in which they called Mr. Rogers "this evil, evil man." and trashed him based on a nonsensical paper published by a nobody professor from Louisiana who was looking for his fifteen minutes of fame.
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Doomsday
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Post by Doomsday on Jun 10, 2018 20:58:27 GMT -5
I know, and that that's what's been happening. All I'm saying is that it hasn't worked out very well and it might be time for a new strategy. That's my whole entire point. So what's your alternate strategy? How do we fight racism without acknowledging it exists? My previous posts have pertained to why I think Democrats have lost voters and how I would get them back. Discussing how to fight racism itself is a whole different beast and frankly as a white guy from southern California it's something that I don't feel terribly qualified to take point on. Sure I have ideas, we all do and I certainly don't doubt racism exists, I just think it's a very layered, very deep and very personal conversation for most people.
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Dracula
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Post by Dracula on Jun 10, 2018 21:28:37 GMT -5
So what's your alternate strategy? How do we fight racism without acknowledging it exists? My previous posts have pertained to why I think Democrats have lost voters and how I would get them back. Discussing how to fight racism itself is a whole different beast and frankly as a white guy from southern California it's something that I don't feel terribly qualified to take point on. Sure I have ideas, we all do and I certainly don't doubt racism exists, I just think it's a very layered, very deep and very personal conversation for most people. All due respect, but you certainly seem to have a whole lot of opinions about how not to fight racism, and unless you have ideas for an alternative... well, put it this way, just ignoring these issues is not an option. There are a significant number of black and Latino voters in the Democrat party and they're sick and tired of all the inaction and compromise that have gone on for years and they're not going to accept "we can't hurt the racist white people's feelings" as an excuse in the era of Trump, BLM, and #MeToo.
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