Doomsday
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Post by Doomsday on Nov 5, 2023 12:34:26 GMT -5
So this will be a stream of consciousness post while my brain goes in all different directions but I thought I would type it out and see what you guys think. To start on a personal note, over the past couple years my wife has been very vocal about moving. I live in southern California, I was born and raised here, went to school here, I work here, my friends are here, I've been pretty much anchored here my whole life. My wife grew up in the midwest and only came to CA for work so she's not as tied to the area as I am. At the moment I live in a town house with the wife and two kids and this town house gets smaller by the day. Naturally the logical solution would be to move but...move where? Into another house that we can't afford? Into an apartment that's smaller than what we have now? Real estate/rental prices are absurd all over the country and it's even more crazy here. The next logical solution, for my wife that is, is just to move somewhere that's not California. Anywhere. And no matter where we move it will almost certainly be an upgrade. We each have family all over the country and personally I don't mind living in a new place. My only main concern is my job and while I've been working remotely or hybrid for the past 3 1/2 years I'm not sure how easy I'll find remote work if I were to head out of state. I'm sure I would find something but the fear is not being able to provide or being forced to do something different. First world problems I know but concerns nonetheless.
This dilemma has made me think of work on the whole. One of the side effects of this pandemic is that it has really blown the lid off of whether people need to come into an office for 40-50 hours a week. People have found themselves to be productive at home and at least in Los Angeles they've gotten quite used to not sitting in traffic for an hour to and from work. They like working on their own terms, whether that means logging off at 4:00pm when work is finished or following up on emails at 9:00pm. They like not having to shell out $20 a day on lunch or being forced to stay after work for a dumb meeting. Naturally there's been a lot of pushback to this, people calling remote/hybrid workers 'lazy' and 'entitled' and 'not wanting to be team players.' I've noticed though that all the people who are making these accusations are older. They're in their 50s, 60s or older. They have their homes, their retirements, their vacation time, their kids are out of school, they're used to the way things were done when they were coming up the ladder. They complain how millennials and Gen X-ers aren't doing the things they did. They aren't buying real estate, they aren't getting married or having kids and conveniently ignore the fact that it's much, much more difficult to do any of those things these days. It's the modern version of the 'kids these days' argument. As as I mentioned in the previous paragraph, a lot of people I know have split from California so they can do these things, so they can afford a house and therefore get married and have the kids, something that's difficult to do due to the enormously high cost of living in some of these big cities. And what's the baby boomer response? 'No, you can't do that, you have to live in these big cities and go to work and sit in traffic and do all these things that you really don't need to do anymore.' I have my own beefs with the people of my generation but the response to a pretty horrid state of affairs that's been dumped on them, from the great recession to cost of living to student loans, isn't one of them. People are reacting in order to better themselves, better their physical and mental health, better their quality of life, better the lives of their families, and they use technology to their advantage to pursue their own goals.
I'm pretty pro-remote working and admittedly it's for selfish reasons. I want to work remotely so I can up my quality of life and those in my family. If people want to work hybrid then they should get that opportunity. But the idea of 'everybody needs to sit in traffic, slog into work and chain themselves to their desks' seems to be antiquated and there's definitely a push to make that happen again from the CEOs and the publications they own (how many bullshit articles are published each day with bullshit headlines like 'sleeping in your cubicle is actually good for your mental health, bullshit studies find'). Granted not all work can or should be remote or hybrid. Teaching for example, service jobs or healthcare and the like. The benefits to those jobs though is that you can do them anywhere, you aren't planted in one location. Other jobs are and if remote work can let them life a better life elsewhere, why is that a problem? Anyways, I'm sure there's a lot I missed but I'm blowing off steam. What do you guys think? Disagree wholeheartedly? Trying to do the same for yourselves? Where do you sit on this kinda thing?
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IanTheCool
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Post by IanTheCool on Nov 5, 2023 14:33:31 GMT -5
Yeah, I get what you are saying about the boomer mentality hanging on. I personally would hate working remotely, but its not really gonna happen for me (... again, that is).
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Dracula
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Post by Dracula on Nov 5, 2023 15:02:08 GMT -5
Yeah, this backlash to remote work is absolute horseshit.
BTW, this is probably the worst possible time to try to move. Even if you find a cheaper house the interest rates on a mortgage are going to be sky high. Obviously you can refi later if the rates go down but it certainly doesn't hurt to stick to a lower interest rate while you have it locked in, because it's going to be a very long time before they go back down to 2008-2020 rates.
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PhantomKnight
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Post by PhantomKnight on Nov 5, 2023 15:32:20 GMT -5
My Dad is absolutely one of the ones complaining about those who want to keep remote work, cause he's one one of the ones you described who's used to going into an office every day. Meanwhile, the job I started almost a year ago now (previous one let me go early 2022 due to pandemic-related changes) is a hybrid -- I work from home M/W/F and go into the office T/Th -- and I couldn't be happier with that arrangement. Plus, I absolutely feel like I've still been able to make connections with/get to know my co-workers really well, so it's not like it's costing me social opportunities, either. And I find myself no less productive on my remote days as opposed to the in-office ones, so the backlash to remote really does seem stupid.
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Nilade
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Post by Nilade on Nov 5, 2023 17:42:01 GMT -5
I feel you. After the pandemic, my work was making me come once a week. Right before a had my stroke, they bumped it up to two days. After I had my stroke, I couldn't drive into office anymore. Fortunately, I was valuable enough to the company I worked for to they made an exception for me to stay permanent remote. We ended up selling our little condo in Anaheim and, two months ago, bought a home in Temecula where the cost of living is much less. Unfortunately, I had to sacrificed my health, mobility, and literally my right arm to make it happen.
As Drac mentioned, interest rates are high. Our's was over 7%. But right now, it's a buyer's market. We are definitely refinancing as soon as they come back down.
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IanTheCool
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Post by IanTheCool on Nov 5, 2023 17:42:04 GMT -5
I only did it for 3 or 4 months, but I hated the blurred lines between work and home life. Obviously I get that you would figure that out, but it did bother me
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thebtskink
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Post by thebtskink on Nov 5, 2023 17:48:23 GMT -5
I hear you, and also feel kind of stuck. JPMorgan's CEO wants us all back in the office 5 days a week. He hasn't come out and said it, but it's pretty clear he does and some other higher-ups disagree.
Productivity wise, I'm better in a hybrid model than fully from home or fully in office. 39 miles away and it still takes me 1.5 hrs to drive into Boston, despite working slightly offpeak hours. I'm lucky in that my managers don't have me pegged to a daily scheduled hours, and so long as I badge in on scheduled days at some point and get my roughly 40 hrs a week, I can leave whenever I want.
Dana and I live in my townhouse, and only because I couldn't afford a livable house when I bought before I met her. The cost of living here keeps increasing, and we'll need to move eventually, but if I want to stay close to my family and something affordable I'm going to have to swallow these long ass commutes or change companies.
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Neverending
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Post by Neverending on Nov 5, 2023 17:51:32 GMT -5
Sometimes it’s good to have people in the same room, but yes, I agree, remote work (when possible) should always be the choice.
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Neverending
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Post by Neverending on Nov 5, 2023 18:39:01 GMT -5
Doomsday bitches about remote work and the site crashes.
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Doomsday
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Post by Doomsday on Nov 5, 2023 19:31:51 GMT -5
Yeah, I get what you are saying about the boomer mentality hanging on. I personally would hate working remotely, but its not really gonna happen for me (... again, that is). I just posted about my buddy who got covid in the other thread. That same buddy is a high school teacher and he was in the shits when he had to do that remotely. Keeping people on point via zoom sounds like a nightmare. BTW, this is probably the worst possible time to try to move. Even if you find a cheaper house the interest rates on a mortgage are going to be sky high. Obviously you can refi later if the rates go down but it certainly doesn't hurt to stick to a lower interest rate while you have it locked in, because it's going to be a very long time before they go back down to 2008-2020 rates. Oh yeah 100%. That's the other thing that's keeping us where we're at for the time being. We probably wouldn't head anywhere for a while but that's a bridge we'll definitely need to cross. I only did it for 3 or 4 months, but I hated the blurred lines between work and home life. Obviously I get that you would figure that out, but it did bother me That's one of the noticeable downsides, people expect you to be 'on' at any time. I've been hit up by supervisors at 11pm asking 'if I'm still awake' even though they know full well that I am. You have more personal freedom but that means you need to be especially vocal and firm with your boundaries.
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Doomsday
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Post by Doomsday on Nov 5, 2023 19:35:04 GMT -5
My Dad is absolutely one of the ones complaining about those who want to keep remote work, cause he's one one of the ones you described who's used to going into an office every day. My dad is the same way. He's a successful guy, very type A personality and he's said 'I can't believe people expect to succeed while working from home, what do you guys think work is?' He just can't wrap his head around it. One time I told him 'you're only mad about the remote work prospect because you had to go into an office for 40 years.' His reply was 'Of course!' Well, uhh thanks for proving my point old timer.
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Doomsday
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Post by Doomsday on Nov 5, 2023 19:38:37 GMT -5
I feel you. After the pandemic, my work was making me come once a week. Right before a had my stroke, they bumped it up to two days. After I had my stroke, I couldn't drive into office anymore. Fortunately, I was valuable enough to the company I worked for to they made an exception for me to stay permanent remote. We ended up selling our little condo in Anaheim and, two months ago, bought a home in Temecula where the cost of living is much less. Unfortunately, I had to sacrificed my health, mobility, and literally my right arm to make it happen. As Drac mentioned, interest rates are high. Our's was over 7%. But right now, it's a buyer's market. We are definitely refinancing as soon as they come back down. Hopefully you're on the upswing! An upgrade to a new house from an apartment can help you stretch your legs a bit I would imagine.
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PhantomKnight
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Post by PhantomKnight on Nov 5, 2023 19:51:33 GMT -5
My Dad is absolutely one of the ones complaining about those who want to keep remote work, cause he's one one of the ones you described who's used to going into an office every day. My dad is the same way. He's a successful guy, very type A personality and he's said 'I can't believe people expect to succeed while working from home, what do you guys think work is?' He just can't wrap his head around it. One time I told him 'you're only mad about the remote work prospect because you had to go into an office for 40 years.' His reply was 'Of course!' Well, uhh thanks for proving my point old timer. So, my dad and I work for the same place, basically -- UNC Chapel Hill -- but in entirely different departments. And during the pandemic, he was somebody who still had to go into the office five days a week, even when most others had shifted to remote. I definitely think that has something to do with his mindset, but like yours, his sense of "angry old timer" is pretty pronounced at times.
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Neverending
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Post by Neverending on Nov 6, 2023 2:13:44 GMT -5
One time I told him 'you're only mad about the remote work prospect because you had to go into an office for 40 years.' His reply was 'Of course!' Well, uhh thanks for proving my point old timer. Unfortunately, I treat my staff as I’d do my children. I want them to have better lives. I’ve gone through a lot of bullshit in my work life. Why would I want to pass that on to others? My job, I feel, is to correct the mistakes of the past and create a better future. Remote work is a step in the right direction (although not a definite solution). I don’t subscribe to the mindset that people need to suffer because I suffered.
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Neverending
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Post by Neverending on Nov 24, 2023 18:22:52 GMT -5
I'm pretty pro-remote working This was a topic of conversation at Thanksgiving. My uncle is in patient care, so maybe PhantomKnight will want to chime in. He says that at his hospital, the administrative workers that went remote, have been missing deadlines and it has created issues at the hospital. My response to him was that, prior to the pandemic and remote work, we all had co-workers that were unreliable and troublemaking. But when people work side by side, inevitably, someone is gonna pick up the slack. It’s like in high school when there’d be a group project and one person did most of the work. Now with remote work, management needs to start acting like management and hold people accountable. Sounds like common sense, but, I’m sure management has been instructed to let productivity go down so they can justify bringing everyone back to the office. That’s what you guys gotta watch out for. You need someone in management with a spine.
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Doomsday
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Post by Doomsday on Nov 25, 2023 1:58:04 GMT -5
I'm pretty pro-remote working This was a topic of conversation at Thanksgiving. My uncle is in patient care, so maybe PhantomKnight will want to chime in. He says that at his hospital, the administrative workers that went remote, have been missing deadlines and it has created issues at the hospital. My response to him was that, prior to the pandemic and remote work, we all had co-workers that were unreliable and troublemaking. But when people work side by side, inevitably, someone is gonna pick up the slack. It’s like in high school when there’d be a group project and one person did most of the work. Now with remote work, management needs to start acting like management and hold people accountable. Sounds like common sense, but, I’m sure management has been instructed to let productivity go down so they can justify bringing everyone back to the office. That’s what you guys gotta watch out for. You need someone in management with a spine. Yeah, it's just another facet that employers have to manage. If someone was working in the office and they spend all their time on Facebook, they're disciplined or let go. It's not like it doesn't happen when people are working in person, there are always people who could be doing more. But Millennials and Gen Zers have realized that employers need employees as much as the employees need employers. People at these companies thought they could say 'you need to come back into the office or find another job.' They didn't anticipate many of the workers going 'that's fine, we'll work somewhere else.' Young people are starting to realize the power they wield. I think companies with intelligent people are catching on and the smart ones will offer remote or hybrid work as a benefit but eventually as the boomers retire and millennials move in that benefit will become more widespread.
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PhantomKnight
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Post by PhantomKnight on Nov 25, 2023 18:55:40 GMT -5
I'm pretty pro-remote working This was a topic of conversation at Thanksgiving. My uncle is in patient care, so maybe PhantomKnight will want to chime in. He says that at his hospital, the administrative workers that went remote, have been missing deadlines and it has created issues at the hospital. My response to him was that, prior to the pandemic and remote work, we all had co-workers that were unreliable and troublemaking. But when people work side by side, inevitably, someone is gonna pick up the slack. It’s like in high school when there’d be a group project and one person did most of the work. Now with remote work, management needs to start acting like management and hold people accountable. Sounds like common sense, but, I’m sure management has been instructed to let productivity go down so they can justify bringing everyone back to the office. That’s what you guys gotta watch out for. You need someone in management with a spine. I can't really speak to that, because now I work in the hospital/university's Equal Opportunity and Compliance Office. I help facilitate requests and paperwork/connect people in need of work-or-academic-related accommodations based off medical conditions, physical injuries, etc. But back when I worked as an Administrative Associate in Radiology, I think we still did a good job of staying on-time with deadlines and such. And even now on this team, where we're remote three out of five days of the week, I think we do a good job of staying on top of things. But some DO kind of fall by the wayside a bit due to the sheer volume sometimes, but also because some people either just take a while to get their needed paperwork in or just go radio silent for a while. It's not a problem with management, because my direct supervisor and the one above her are awesome about staying on top of things/meeting regularly to discuss case statuses. So, all I can say is that my remote work experience has very smooth and productive.
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docstop
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Post by docstop on Dec 4, 2023 13:32:31 GMT -5
I'm with you, Doom, on how difficult it is to try and navigate work and home and a spouse's expectations too. Granted, I live in Ontario and a small town, not SoCal area, but we are now maxing out our finances nd needing to move to a bigger house as we had twins, out of the NICU on Nov 10. So bungalow, 6 kids and a dog. We can make it work maybe 2 years max but my wife's not happy with it. As a mental health therapist, a lot of my work is understandably face to face, but I could start to try and lean more into virtual which would open up more of a hybrid approach. Save on gas and what not.
The other factor for me, and it's a new perspective,is that life is short and don't strive for a meaningful life via work. If you can work at something you love great. If you can make a good living, awesome, and that will help relieve some stress. People who crap on remote work are honestly only complaining that they don't get to do it or as others have already mentioned, a mis-guided, black and white attitude, towards what work meant for an older generation. You have to do what is right for you and family. I say this because my Dad died 1 month, 2 days ago and since his death, I see all these people driving to work beside me and hustling on the streets to make it to work on time and I understand the value and requirement of earning money to live, but the meaning of life is connection to others and I think we live in a culture of mindless busyness where life is frittered away and then it ends all of the sudden and what matters most was an afterthought.
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Doomsday
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Post by Doomsday on Dec 22, 2023 11:56:41 GMT -5
I'm with you, Doom, on how difficult it is to try and navigate work and home and a spouse's expectations too. Granted, I live in Ontario and a small town, not SoCal area, but we are now maxing out our finances nd needing to move to a bigger house as we had twins, out of the NICU on Nov 10. So bungalow, 6 kids and a dog. We can make it work maybe 2 years max but my wife's not happy with it. As a mental health therapist, a lot of my work is understandably face to face, but I could start to try and lean more into virtual which would open up more of a hybrid approach. Save on gas and what not. The other factor for me, and it's a new perspective,is that life is short and don't strive for a meaningful life via work. If you can work at something you love great. If you can make a good living, awesome, and that will help relieve some stress. People who crap on remote work are honestly only complaining that they don't get to do it or as others have already mentioned, a mis-guided, black and white attitude, towards what work meant for an older generation. You have to do what is right for you and family. I say this because my Dad died 1 month, 2 days ago and since his death, I see all these people driving to work beside me and hustling on the streets to make it to work on time and I understand the value and requirement of earning money to live, but the meaning of life is connection to others and I think we live in a culture of mindless busyness where life is frittered away and then it ends all of the sudden and what matters most was an afterthought. Not sure how I missed this but I just saw your post, doc. Really sorry to hear about your dad, I'm sure you're still processing in a way. From what I understand, I think the whole 'finding meaning' is a concept that younger folks are starting to embrace more than previous generations. That might be because a lot of them did what they were told, they did things 'the right way' by getting educated, going to college then they got out and realized they have a ton of debt and don't see the plentiful, six-figure jobs that they were promised. It reminds me of Boy Scouts. I'm actually an Eagle Scout and part of the reason is because when you're in Boy Scouts as a kid the adult leaders tell you 'If you're an Eagle Scout, you decide which college you want to go to. Do you want to be a governor or senator? You'll certainly be President but you might need to wait in line behind the other Eagle Scouts. Don't worry because your entire life will be on easy street.' Then you get your Eagle Scout award, you realize it's total vagina repellant and you were sold a false bill of goods. A lot of people were sold the same bill in a way and are figuring out that some of these things that our parents did aren't all that important nor are they worth it. I think the only conflict would be if you like what you do. It's one thing to find a balance in a job that you're able to tolerate but if it's an actual life pursuit that you want to invest in then it might take more consideration. Hopefully you're able to make it work for you while juggling six kids. Six kids, you're a stronger man than I am.
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Neverending
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Post by Neverending on Dec 22, 2023 17:30:31 GMT -5
The other factor for me, and it's a new perspective, is that life is short and don't strive for a meaningful life via work. If you can work at something you love great. If you can make a good living, awesome, and that will help relieve some stress. People who crap on remote work are honestly only complaining that they don't get to do it or as others have already mentioned, a mis-guided, black and white attitude, towards what work meant for an older generation. You have to do what is right for you and family. I think the whole 'finding meaning' is a concept that younger folks are starting to embrace more than previous generations. It’s also important to note that the system is rigged against you. Even if you love your job — you still gotta deal with assholes in leadership positions, toxic co-workers and counterproductive workplace politics. I’m certain all this existed in previous generations, but we have lost our sense of community. We don’t have an abundance of mom & pop businesses that create jobs and workplace cultures for their neighborhood. Most of us either work for a soulless corporation or a mid-size company where the owner rarely steps one foot in the building and their children run the place. And those fortunate enough to work at a mom & pop, let’s be honest, there’s a 99.9% chance it’s a money laundering operation. So it is very difficult to find a job that feels meaningful. We spend 40 hours a week (not counting traffic) at soul crushing jobs. That’s why this generations (and I mean Zoomers cause millennials are way older than the media is willing to admit ) are rebelling against the current work culture. Can you blame them?
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IanTheCool
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Post by IanTheCool on Dec 22, 2023 18:56:15 GMT -5
Or we work for a government that doesn't care about us.
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