Post by PG Cooper on Oct 3, 2014 9:53:10 GMT -5
My reviews are on my blog and I have files on my computer as well. But I greatly enjoyed talking Trek with all of you so I'm preserving that here.
Star Trek: The Motion Picture Discussion
Wrath of Khan Discussion
The Search for Spock Discussion
The Voyage Home Discussion
The Final Frontier Discussion
The Undiscovered Country Discussion
Generations Discussion
First Contact Discussion
Insurrection Discussion
Nemesis Discussion
Star Trek (09)
Conclusion
Star Trek: The Motion Picture Discussion
Dracula
Cool series idea.
I never had a lot of patience for Star Trek: TMP, but I've been meaning to give it another try one of these days. It might just be that that first hour kind of knocks me out each time and leaves me kind of unwilling to get too into the hard sci-fi in the second half.
Cool series idea.
I never had a lot of patience for Star Trek: TMP, but I've been meaning to give it another try one of these days. It might just be that that first hour kind of knocks me out each time and leaves me kind of unwilling to get too into the hard sci-fi in the second half.
PG Cooper
Yeah, all of the really good s*** is crammed in the last hour or so.
Yeah, all of the really good s*** is crammed in the last hour or so.
Knerys
I eagerly await your introspective.
I eagerly await your introspective.
PG Cooper
Thanks, boss. I know you're a big Trek fan. Hopefully this series meets your standards.
Thanks, boss. I know you're a big Trek fan. Hopefully this series meets your standards.
SnoBorderZero
I really wanted to like this movie, and for the first hour I did.
I really wanted to like this movie, and for the first hour I did.
PG Cooper
Interesting. Personally I don't think the film really comes alive until the second half.
Interesting. Personally I don't think the film really comes alive until the second half.
SnoBorderZero
I think for me I was enjoying the "2001" style shots of people floating around and all the Enterprise money shots. They were completely for show and devoid of substance, but it held my interest more then the "plot" did.
I think for me I was enjoying the "2001" style shots of people floating around and all the Enterprise money shots. They were completely for show and devoid of substance, but it held my interest more then the "plot" did.
Wrath of Khan Discussion
JBond
I find the movie a bit overrated, but the last 15-20 minutes of it are among my favorite anything of everything.
I find the movie a bit overrated, but the last 15-20 minutes of it are among my favorite anything of everything.
PG Cooper
I actually read your letterboxd review after completing the film. I agree with a lot of the criticisms you bring up, I guess I just don't mind them.
I actually read your letterboxd review after completing the film. I agree with a lot of the criticisms you bring up, I guess I just don't mind them.
Neverending
This film is highly entertaining, but a simple revenge story is beneath Star Trek. Plus, Khan is actually a crappy villain. Ricardo Montalban is so brilliant in the role that people don't seem to realize that Khan never really accomplishes anything. Kirk defeats him with very little effort. In addition, I think it's very disappointing that Kirk and Khan never meet face-to-face. They should have ended things with their fists instead of hiding behind a space ship. And - one last thing - it's so UN-Star Trek to have scientists create a planet and not have the moral dilemma be central to the plot. I know it must be upsetting to some that I'm being so nice to the The Motion Picture and so harsh on Wrath of Khan but, as Dracula would say, I'm just offering a unique perspective.
This film is highly entertaining, but a simple revenge story is beneath Star Trek. Plus, Khan is actually a crappy villain. Ricardo Montalban is so brilliant in the role that people don't seem to realize that Khan never really accomplishes anything. Kirk defeats him with very little effort. In addition, I think it's very disappointing that Kirk and Khan never meet face-to-face. They should have ended things with their fists instead of hiding behind a space ship. And - one last thing - it's so UN-Star Trek to have scientists create a planet and not have the moral dilemma be central to the plot. I know it must be upsetting to some that I'm being so nice to the The Motion Picture and so harsh on Wrath of Khan but, as Dracula would say, I'm just offering a unique perspective.
PG Cooper
Hurm, as you say, unique perspective. Personally, I kind of like how ineffective Khan is. I love that he could have gotten away with the Genesis Device and wreaked huge destruction, but his blind rage to Kirk prevents him from doing so. It makes him a more unhinged force. I also think this furthers the idea of Khan as a reflection of Kirk. Khan's blind pursuit of his mission at all costs leads to the death of his followers, his own death, and the destruction of his ship. This is what Kirk could become. I realize this last point is a bit of a reach, but I find it interesting.
Hurm, as you say, unique perspective. Personally, I kind of like how ineffective Khan is. I love that he could have gotten away with the Genesis Device and wreaked huge destruction, but his blind rage to Kirk prevents him from doing so. It makes him a more unhinged force. I also think this furthers the idea of Khan as a reflection of Kirk. Khan's blind pursuit of his mission at all costs leads to the death of his followers, his own death, and the destruction of his ship. This is what Kirk could become. I realize this last point is a bit of a reach, but I find it interesting.
Neverending
That had more to do with his incompetence than his blind rage. At no point in the movie does Khan come anywhere near to killing Kirk. So, he just comes across as a weak villain instead of a reckless one.
That had more to do with his incompetence than his blind rage. At no point in the movie does Khan come anywhere near to killing Kirk. So, he just comes across as a weak villain instead of a reckless one.
PG Cooper
I don't know about that. He could have blown up the Enterpise had he not decided to message Kirk and give him time to plan. He probably also could have beamed himself into the cave and blown him away.
I don't know about that. He could have blown up the Enterpise had he not decided to message Kirk and give him time to plan. He probably also could have beamed himself into the cave and blown him away.
Knerys
I've always seen Khan as more than the sum of its parts, but I first watched this at an impressionably young age so there is a lot of nostalgia tied to my love of this movie. That said, I've continued to watch it over the years and it hasn't lost a step with me. Yes, there are holes but movie making is a strive for excellence not perfection (that doesn't exist). It's the first time Star Trek appealed to the broader masses so there's something to be said for that and I love Meyer's staging of the action, but it's the attention to the relationships between its crew, most notably Kirk and Spock, that make this movie special to me. You see the decades of camaraderie between those two men in that engine room. That only comes from the moment of leg work these guys put into those characters. It's one of the most emotional moments in film for me.
I've always seen Khan as more than the sum of its parts, but I first watched this at an impressionably young age so there is a lot of nostalgia tied to my love of this movie. That said, I've continued to watch it over the years and it hasn't lost a step with me. Yes, there are holes but movie making is a strive for excellence not perfection (that doesn't exist). It's the first time Star Trek appealed to the broader masses so there's something to be said for that and I love Meyer's staging of the action, but it's the attention to the relationships between its crew, most notably Kirk and Spock, that make this movie special to me. You see the decades of camaraderie between those two men in that engine room. That only comes from the moment of leg work these guys put into those characters. It's one of the most emotional moments in film for me.
The Search for Spock Discussion
Neverending
I have mixed feelings about this film. On one hand, it makes up for the shortcomings in Wrath of Khan. Kirk meets the villain and engages in hand-to-hand combat. And, Planet Genesis is central to the story. But on the other hand, killing Spock was a waste of time. It was a distraction to more important things. Kirk's son gets killed, but the movie has no time to digest that since Spock needs to get resurrected. Planet Genesis is a failure, but there's no time to focus on that since Spock needs to get rescued.
I have mixed feelings about this film. On one hand, it makes up for the shortcomings in Wrath of Khan. Kirk meets the villain and engages in hand-to-hand combat. And, Planet Genesis is central to the story. But on the other hand, killing Spock was a waste of time. It was a distraction to more important things. Kirk's son gets killed, but the movie has no time to digest that since Spock needs to get resurrected. Planet Genesis is a failure, but there's no time to focus on that since Spock needs to get rescued.
MasterChief117
Solid review on Search for Spock. Far from one of my favorites, but on a whole better than Insurrection (I think JBond pretending to be Kirk would have made for a far better film in general). Some of the ideas used in Search were so goofy, and that final fight sequence is absolutely eye rolling.
Solid review on Search for Spock. Far from one of my favorites, but on a whole better than Insurrection (I think JBond pretending to be Kirk would have made for a far better film in general). Some of the ideas used in Search were so goofy, and that final fight sequence is absolutely eye rolling.
Doomsday
I enjoyed Search for Spock. It's better than most of the Star Trek movies and although it has some bumps in the road it's still a fun middle film for the 'trilogy' that was Wrath of Khan/Search for Spock/The Voyage Home.
I enjoyed Search for Spock. It's better than most of the Star Trek movies and although it has some bumps in the road it's still a fun middle film for the 'trilogy' that was Wrath of Khan/Search for Spock/The Voyage Home.
Knerys
I never understood why Search for Spock got lumped into odd curse because its a decent flick with some really awesome moments. Yes flawed, but they all have them. I just remember watching Kirk and McCoy as they watched the Enterprise disintegrate across the sky...*chills*
I understand most of your complaints though. It can be seen as a cop out but for finding a conceivable way to bring back the character, I thought they handled it well. I don't think it cheapens Kirk's position on facing a no win situations though and you'll understand with the viewing of future installments. Plus he didn't know it there was an option at the time.
I never understood why Search for Spock got lumped into odd curse because its a decent flick with some really awesome moments. Yes flawed, but they all have them. I just remember watching Kirk and McCoy as they watched the Enterprise disintegrate across the sky...*chills*
I understand most of your complaints though. It can be seen as a cop out but for finding a conceivable way to bring back the character, I thought they handled it well. I don't think it cheapens Kirk's position on facing a no win situations though and you'll understand with the viewing of future installments. Plus he didn't know it there was an option at the time.
The Voyage Home Discussion
Knerys
Nicely written. It's definitely the most accessible Star Trek Film and one I always recommend it to non Trekkies if they want a place to get started. It's definitely the one that gets quoted the most in my household. I never felt it was smacking us over the head though with its message. Just a firm nudge. Interstingly enough, its been found that whales are stopping their singing because the ocean has become too noisy with all the traffic in it now. It's a little sad to think about.
One of the top 3 Trek films.
Nicely written. It's definitely the most accessible Star Trek Film and one I always recommend it to non Trekkies if they want a place to get started. It's definitely the one that gets quoted the most in my household. I never felt it was smacking us over the head though with its message. Just a firm nudge. Interstingly enough, its been found that whales are stopping their singing because the ocean has become too noisy with all the traffic in it now. It's a little sad to think about.
One of the top 3 Trek films.
JBond
Definitely. My sister isn't a Star Trek fan by any means, but growing up she would constantly want to watch "The one with the whales."
Definitely. My sister isn't a Star Trek fan by any means, but growing up she would constantly want to watch "The one with the whales."
The Final Frontier Discussion
Neverending
I would blame Paramount. This shouldn't have been Shatner's directorial debut. A more accomplished director could have survived the writer's strike. For example, J.J. Abram's Star Trek was made in the middle of the 2007 writer's strike. Although, Paramount did delay the movie for 5 months and that was a favorable factor. So, let's look at other movies from 1989 that were also victims of the writer's strike.
Tim Burton's Batman went into production without screenwriter Sam Hamm and questionable decisions were made in the London set like Alfred letting Vicki Vale into the Batcave and The Joker being the killer of Bruce Wayne's parents. And yet, the movie is a classic. Another prime example is Lethal Weapon 2. Richard Donner pretty much had Mel Gibson and Danny Glover improvise the entire first act while putting together that embarrassing car chase where the surf board beheads a guy. But, as a veteran filmmaker, he knew the 2nd and 3rd acts had to be super strong to make up for it.
William Shatner, as we now know, didn't have the skills and talent to direct a writer-less movie like Tim Burton and Richard Donner did. You can even throw in Steven Spielberg since the 3rd Indiana Jones was also made during the writer's strike. So, like I said, Paramount was just insane to allow Shatner to direct under those conditions. And NOW, they made an equally insane decision by having Roberto Orci direct the new Star Trek. Granted, we have to give him the benefit of the doubt, but on paper, it sounds crazy.
I would blame Paramount. This shouldn't have been Shatner's directorial debut. A more accomplished director could have survived the writer's strike. For example, J.J. Abram's Star Trek was made in the middle of the 2007 writer's strike. Although, Paramount did delay the movie for 5 months and that was a favorable factor. So, let's look at other movies from 1989 that were also victims of the writer's strike.
Tim Burton's Batman went into production without screenwriter Sam Hamm and questionable decisions were made in the London set like Alfred letting Vicki Vale into the Batcave and The Joker being the killer of Bruce Wayne's parents. And yet, the movie is a classic. Another prime example is Lethal Weapon 2. Richard Donner pretty much had Mel Gibson and Danny Glover improvise the entire first act while putting together that embarrassing car chase where the surf board beheads a guy. But, as a veteran filmmaker, he knew the 2nd and 3rd acts had to be super strong to make up for it.
William Shatner, as we now know, didn't have the skills and talent to direct a writer-less movie like Tim Burton and Richard Donner did. You can even throw in Steven Spielberg since the 3rd Indiana Jones was also made during the writer's strike. So, like I said, Paramount was just insane to allow Shatner to direct under those conditions. And NOW, they made an equally insane decision by having Roberto Orci direct the new Star Trek. Granted, we have to give him the benefit of the doubt, but on paper, it sounds crazy.
PG Cooper
Interesting points. I thought about bringing up the many excellent blockbusters which only made Final Frontier look worse by comparison, but I couldn't really find a place for it.
I'm not giving Orci the benefit of the doubt. I hope for the best, but the man is a terrible storyteller and his (and Kurtzman's) scripts are by far the weak link of the current Trek films.
Interesting points. I thought about bringing up the many excellent blockbusters which only made Final Frontier look worse by comparison, but I couldn't really find a place for it.
I'm not giving Orci the benefit of the doubt. I hope for the best, but the man is a terrible storyteller and his (and Kurtzman's) scripts are by far the weak link of the current Trek films.
The Undiscovered Country Discussion
Knerys
I'm really curious as to you thoughts, PG, on Undiscovered Country because I have come to see it a the most complete Star Trek film in term of what I consider Star Trek to be.
I'm really curious as to you thoughts, PG, on Undiscovered Country because I have come to see it a the most complete Star Trek film in term of what I consider Star Trek to be.
SnoBorderZero
I really enjoyed it as well, I thought other than "Khan" it was the best of the original series films. The effects in it were top-notch and I felt like they finally got the right amount of comedy and adventure with "Undiscovered Country" and really just makes you wonder why Meyer only directed two films in the series.
I really enjoyed it as well, I thought other than "Khan" it was the best of the original series films. The effects in it were top-notch and I felt like they finally got the right amount of comedy and adventure with "Undiscovered Country" and really just makes you wonder why Meyer only directed two films in the series.
PG Cooper
I'm excited, yet also a little sad. I'm gonna miss the old crew.
I'm excited, yet also a little sad. I'm gonna miss the old crew.
Neverending
The Undiscovered Country is my favorite Star Trek movie when I'm actually watching it. But when I'm reflecting on the series, for whatever reason, the film doesn't resonate as well as The Voyage Home or even The Motion Picture. I think the movie does a wonderful job of representing what the 1960's TV show stood for, but it also doesn't do anything to stand-out. I honestly couldn't tell you a single memorable scene or dialogue from The Undiscovered Country.
The Undiscovered Country is my favorite Star Trek movie when I'm actually watching it. But when I'm reflecting on the series, for whatever reason, the film doesn't resonate as well as The Voyage Home or even The Motion Picture. I think the movie does a wonderful job of representing what the 1960's TV show stood for, but it also doesn't do anything to stand-out. I honestly couldn't tell you a single memorable scene or dialogue from The Undiscovered Country.
Knerys
PG, do not read this post.
The Romulan ale fueled disaster of a dinner.
The prison scene.
THE TRIAL SCENE.
The Sickbay scene.
Sulu swooping into the rescue.
"You've not truly experienced Shakespeare until you've read him in it's original Klingon."
"They're dying"
"Then LET them die."
"There is an old Vulcan proverb: only Nixon could go to China."
"She'll fly apart."
"FLY HER APART THEN!"
"I've never trusted Klingons and I never will. I can never forgive them for the death of my boy."
Should I go on?
PG, do not read this post.
The Romulan ale fueled disaster of a dinner.
The prison scene.
THE TRIAL SCENE.
The Sickbay scene.
Sulu swooping into the rescue.
"You've not truly experienced Shakespeare until you've read him in it's original Klingon."
"They're dying"
"Then LET them die."
"There is an old Vulcan proverb: only Nixon could go to China."
"She'll fly apart."
"FLY HER APART THEN!"
"I've never trusted Klingons and I never will. I can never forgive them for the death of my boy."
Should I go on?
Dracula
It's about the future, Madame Chancellor. Some people think the future means the end of history. Well, we haven't run out of history quite yet. Your father called the future the undiscovered country. People can be very frightened of change.
It's about the future, Madame Chancellor. Some people think the future means the end of history. Well, we haven't run out of history quite yet. Your father called the future the undiscovered country. People can be very frightened of change.
Neverending
Those are all good lines but none of them are iconic like Shatner shouting "KHAN" or Chekov looking for "wessels." Like I said, the movie is awesome when you're watching it but it doesn't stick with you the way other Trek films do.
Those are all good lines but none of them are iconic like Shatner shouting "KHAN" or Chekov looking for "wessels." Like I said, the movie is awesome when you're watching it but it doesn't stick with you the way other Trek films do.
JBond
To be blunt..."so?"
To be blunt..."so?"
JBond
We'll never see a Star Trek movie like this again, period. It's based around conspiracy, politics and peace talks. Imagine someone proposing this for a current Star Trek.
We'll never see a Star Trek movie like this again, period. It's based around conspiracy, politics and peace talks. Imagine someone proposing this for a current Star Trek.
Dracula
Notice how people actually want space politics out of Star Trek but don't get it, meanwhile the Star Wars prequels are widely mocked for daring to use the phrase "taxation of trade routes."
Notice how people actually want space politics out of Star Trek but don't get it, meanwhile the Star Wars prequels are widely mocked for daring to use the phrase "taxation of trade routes."
Neverending
Because Star Trek was always politics and social justice while Star Wars was a simple adventure story. It's like how Batman NEEDS to be dark but Superman isn't allowed to. Or how you - Dracula - get pissed off because James Bond doesn't have an opening gunbarrel sequence anymore. Like I said in MovieBuff's summer blockbuster thread, people don't like change. They say they do but they don't actually want it. Stick to the formula and people will be happy.
Because Star Trek was always politics and social justice while Star Wars was a simple adventure story. It's like how Batman NEEDS to be dark but Superman isn't allowed to. Or how you - Dracula - get pissed off because James Bond doesn't have an opening gunbarrel sequence anymore. Like I said in MovieBuff's summer blockbuster thread, people don't like change. They say they do but they don't actually want it. Stick to the formula and people will be happy.
JBond
You say that like the Star Wars prequels did anything well that they strived to do.
I'm curious Dracula, are you actually bothered by this hypocrisy, or do you just think it's interesting that there's such a trope-divide between franchises?
You say that like the Star Wars prequels did anything well that they strived to do.
I'm curious Dracula, are you actually bothered by this hypocrisy, or do you just think it's interesting that there's such a trope-divide between franchises?
Dracula
I don't mind the hypocracy per se, but I do think those complaints about the prequels are some B.S. To me this kind of space politics is pretty hard wired into science ficton, including light science fiction like Star Wars and that it isn't as pervading a thing in the movies as peope make it out to be. I guess I never saw as big a divide between the amount of politics that was supposed to be in either series as some people claimed to have, and whether or not it "makes sense" I think the idea of having Emperor Palpetine take his throne through such machinations was a genuinely interesting part of the prequels and one of their best aspects.
I don't mind the hypocracy per se, but I do think those complaints about the prequels are some B.S. To me this kind of space politics is pretty hard wired into science ficton, including light science fiction like Star Wars and that it isn't as pervading a thing in the movies as peope make it out to be. I guess I never saw as big a divide between the amount of politics that was supposed to be in either series as some people claimed to have, and whether or not it "makes sense" I think the idea of having Emperor Palpetine take his throne through such machinations was a genuinely interesting part of the prequels and one of their best aspects.
Knerys
Excellent review PG. As I've gotten older I find I enjoy this installment more and more. I wish we could have seen more of Sulu as Captain because he owns it so well here.
Interesting about what you said regarding the Prison Scenes. I can see where you're coming from but I guess I've always seen it a brief and welcome change of pace in a very serious state of affairs. Chang rivals Khan for me sometimes in terms of the best Villians because of his convictions. And even Uhura says that she wasn't sure she'd accept peace either. It's great look at the complexity of global, or here interspacial, political change, and as I have mentioned before, probably the most complete Star Trek film ever.
It makes me sad that's we will not get this kind of storytelling from the newer version. It's a disservice to the Franschise.
Also the Slater cameo was due to the fact the his mother was the cast director and he was a big fan. I thought was cool. I also had a crush in him at the time...
Excellent review PG. As I've gotten older I find I enjoy this installment more and more. I wish we could have seen more of Sulu as Captain because he owns it so well here.
Interesting about what you said regarding the Prison Scenes. I can see where you're coming from but I guess I've always seen it a brief and welcome change of pace in a very serious state of affairs. Chang rivals Khan for me sometimes in terms of the best Villians because of his convictions. And even Uhura says that she wasn't sure she'd accept peace either. It's great look at the complexity of global, or here interspacial, political change, and as I have mentioned before, probably the most complete Star Trek film ever.
It makes me sad that's we will not get this kind of storytelling from the newer version. It's a disservice to the Franschise.
Also the Slater cameo was due to the fact the his mother was the cast director and he was a big fan. I thought was cool. I also had a crush in him at the time...
PG Cooper
More Sulu as Captain would have been sweet.
I get his (Slater's) inclusion in relation to real life, but it's just so weird in the context of the movie, especially since his face is initially hidden in shadow. For a second I thought he was the mastermind behind everything the assassination.
More Sulu as Captain would have been sweet.
I get his (Slater's) inclusion in relation to real life, but it's just so weird in the context of the movie, especially since his face is initially hidden in shadow. For a second I thought he was the mastermind behind everything the assassination.
JBond
The only thing I didn't like about the prison scenes is the alien with the genitals on his knees joke. It's childish and they reeeeally spell out the punch line.
Also, it's anatomically absurd.
The only thing I didn't like about the prison scenes is the alien with the genitals on his knees joke. It's childish and they reeeeally spell out the punch line.
Also, it's anatomically absurd.
PG Cooper
Yeah, that was dumb.
Yeah, that was dumb.
Fanible
It's the only one I remember seeing in the theaters. I remember thinking the visuals were amazing at the time. It also felt very different from everything else Star Trek that I had known.
It's the only one I remember seeing in the theaters. I remember thinking the visuals were amazing at the time. It also felt very different from everything else Star Trek that I had known.
Knerys
Oh yeah, they are 1991 effects, PG. Cut them a little slack.
Oh yeah, they are 1991 effects, PG. Cut them a little slack.
PG Cooper
The effects are fine, except for the horrendous looking CGI blood which is very prominent in the assassination scene. I might have let it slide if it was the 80s, but in 1991, the same year that gave us the T-1000 in Terminator 2, it becomes more problematic.
The effects are fine, except for the horrendous looking CGI blood which is very prominent in the assassination scene. I might have let it slide if it was the 80s, but in 1991, the same year that gave us the T-1000 in Terminator 2, it becomes more problematic.
Fanible
I think the floating blood was one part I thought was pretty cool. This was a fairly new effect at the time. They couldn't all be so masterful at it like Cameron.
I think the floating blood was one part I thought was pretty cool. This was a fairly new effect at the time. They couldn't all be so masterful at it like Cameron.
SnoBorderZero
I liked it too, made me laugh but also was another nice featuring of the improved special effects. It's honestly astounding that "Final Frontier" with all of its god-awful effects was only 2 years before "Undiscovered Country".
I liked it too, made me laugh but also was another nice featuring of the improved special effects. It's honestly astounding that "Final Frontier" with all of its god-awful effects was only 2 years before "Undiscovered Country".
Generations Discussion
JBond
You hit the main problems pretty well. In a sentence, Generations is horribly paced, the Nexus is a forced and inconsistent McGuffin like film has never seen, and Picard's choices throughout the movie don't make any sense (mostly concerning the Nexus and time travel).
You hit the main problems pretty well. In a sentence, Generations is horribly paced, the Nexus is a forced and inconsistent McGuffin like film has never seen, and Picard's choices throughout the movie don't make any sense (mostly concerning the Nexus and time travel).
Dracula
There are a number of places I'd disagree with you, but this is the most crazy. The cinematography in the movie is awesome, it completely livens up the otherwise familiar sets.
I think in general your unfamiliarity with the TV show will hurt you more with these Next Generation films than the did with the others. Those other movies were being made decades after the Original Series had ended and audiences were being reintroduced to the characters while the Next Generation movies started being made less than a year after the end of the show and while the immediate spinoffs were still on the air and are generally meant to be more of a direct continuation.
Personally, when I first saw the movie I was all about the next generation and didn't really give a damn about Kirk and as such I didn't really get too wrapped up in how the film treated him and to some extent still don't.
There are a number of places I'd disagree with you, but this is the most crazy. The cinematography in the movie is awesome, it completely livens up the otherwise familiar sets.
I think in general your unfamiliarity with the TV show will hurt you more with these Next Generation films than the did with the others. Those other movies were being made decades after the Original Series had ended and audiences were being reintroduced to the characters while the Next Generation movies started being made less than a year after the end of the show and while the immediate spinoffs were still on the air and are generally meant to be more of a direct continuation.
Personally, when I first saw the movie I was all about the next generation and didn't really give a damn about Kirk and as such I didn't really get too wrapped up in how the film treated him and to some extent still don't.
Neverending
Yeah, that's why I never bothered with these movies. I've seen the Original Series many times but I only watched random episodes of Next Generation, Jeri Ryan Boobs, Angry Black Guy and Quantum Leap Returns. These movies are made for the hardcore fans. So, I expect PG Cooper to be very indifferent. Even First Contact shouldn't be getting much of a reaction from him. You can't compare that movie to Wrath of Khan. Wrath of Khan was based on a random episode from the Original Series. First Contact was based on a MAJOR multi-episode-arc from The Next Generation. There's no way for PG Cooper to sit there and have any idea of what he's watching. It's the equivalent of watching The Empire Strikes Back without having seen Star Wars. Sure, you may be able to follow the story but your emotions won't be in the right place.
Yeah, that's why I never bothered with these movies. I've seen the Original Series many times but I only watched random episodes of Next Generation, Jeri Ryan Boobs, Angry Black Guy and Quantum Leap Returns. These movies are made for the hardcore fans. So, I expect PG Cooper to be very indifferent. Even First Contact shouldn't be getting much of a reaction from him. You can't compare that movie to Wrath of Khan. Wrath of Khan was based on a random episode from the Original Series. First Contact was based on a MAJOR multi-episode-arc from The Next Generation. There's no way for PG Cooper to sit there and have any idea of what he's watching. It's the equivalent of watching The Empire Strikes Back without having seen Star Wars. Sure, you may be able to follow the story but your emotions won't be in the right place.
Knerys
I don't hate Generations has much as some but it's a rushed film. They wanted to something out while the show was at the height of its popularity and had this misguided idea that the torch had to be physically passed. In fact both the finale of TNG and movie were being written at the same time. But as a fan, getting to see Kirk and Picard share a tete-a-tete is the kind of Geeky goodness we all dream of. And watching the Saucer Section crash was pretty thrilling.
I don't hate Generations has much as some but it's a rushed film. They wanted to something out while the show was at the height of its popularity and had this misguided idea that the torch had to be physically passed. In fact both the finale of TNG and movie were being written at the same time. But as a fan, getting to see Kirk and Picard share a tete-a-tete is the kind of Geeky goodness we all dream of. And watching the Saucer Section crash was pretty thrilling.
First Contact Discussion
Knerys
You have some fair arguments about plotholes but I think the Earth storyline was a way to cut the tension not defuse it. You have to ease up for time to time. Plus James Cromwell as Zefram Cochran is awesome. Cromwell has done so much guest work on Star Trek is was great to see him on the big screen with it (excuse the Trekkie in me). It's easily my favorite of the TNG movies and in my Top 5 of the Trek movies.
You have some fair arguments about plotholes but I think the Earth storyline was a way to cut the tension not defuse it. You have to ease up for time to time. Plus James Cromwell as Zefram Cochran is awesome. Cromwell has done so much guest work on Star Trek is was great to see him on the big screen with it (excuse the Trekkie in me). It's easily my favorite of the TNG movies and in my Top 5 of the Trek movies.
PG Cooper
He was great. Definitely a highlight.
He was great. Definitely a highlight.
Dracula
Glad you liked it and glad you enjoyed The Best of Both Worlds. I agree with you that the Zefram Cochrane storyline kind of screws up the movie's pacing. Its worth noting that Cochrane is a character who has kind of been part of Trek lore for a while and even made an appearance on the Original series, so the dedicated trekies most likely got an extra kick out of the whole plotline that a layman maybe wouldn't.
Glad you liked it and glad you enjoyed The Best of Both Worlds. I agree with you that the Zefram Cochrane storyline kind of screws up the movie's pacing. Its worth noting that Cochrane is a character who has kind of been part of Trek lore for a while and even made an appearance on the Original series, so the dedicated trekies most likely got an extra kick out of the whole plotline that a layman maybe wouldn't.
Fanible
The Queen is confusing to say the least. Her incorporation into the universe is greatly unexplained. The theories seem to be that there are more than one, ala clones or the like. This stems from Picard's questioning how she survived the destruction of the original cube that they were on, and further fueled by the fact that she reappears in Voyager, and I believe seemingly dies twice in that show as well.
*shrugs*
The Queen is confusing to say the least. Her incorporation into the universe is greatly unexplained. The theories seem to be that there are more than one, ala clones or the like. This stems from Picard's questioning how she survived the destruction of the original cube that they were on, and further fueled by the fact that she reappears in Voyager, and I believe seemingly dies twice in that show as well.
*shrugs*
Dracula
I always just assumed that when one queen dies they simply assimilate some other woman and assign her the same role... or the writers just desperately wanted to bring back a popular villain more than they wanted consistent logic.
I always just assumed that when one queen dies they simply assimilate some other woman and assign her the same role... or the writers just desperately wanted to bring back a popular villain more than they wanted consistent logic.
Fanible
That would have been an easy way of filling-in-the-blank, considering they got a different actress to play her. Except then they brought back Alice Kirge to play the Queen again in Voyager's "Endgame" (the producers said they wanted her back in the other episodes, but she had other contractual agreements preventing her from doing so). Then of course it depends on whether you accept that she must have died on the original cube, being that the flashbacks also show that it was her.
That would have been an easy way of filling-in-the-blank, considering they got a different actress to play her. Except then they brought back Alice Kirge to play the Queen again in Voyager's "Endgame" (the producers said they wanted her back in the other episodes, but she had other contractual agreements preventing her from doing so). Then of course it depends on whether you accept that she must have died on the original cube, being that the flashbacks also show that it was her.
Knerys
I would buy the clone theory, but it makes more sense to assimulate another being. It is one of the inconsistencies I've just grown to accept.
I would buy the clone theory, but it makes more sense to assimulate another being. It is one of the inconsistencies I've just grown to accept.
JBond
My theory is the queen was written in to completely change the long history of the collective Borg into a cliché villain because it was a movie that needed a climax and ending.
My theory is the queen was written in to completely change the long history of the collective Borg into a cliché villain because it was a movie that needed a climax and ending.
Insurrection Discussion
Doomsday
It's my least favorite Star Trek.
It's my least favorite Star Trek.
Knerys
Pretty spot on. As some one mentioned, it's like a long episode.
I loved the ram scoop maneuver and opening with Data "malfunctioning". I didn't mind the kid but the love story between Picard and Anji tiresome. I like the banter between the regular cast in this too, felt much like the TOS cast in their movies. And the scene where Geordi gets to watch a his first real sunset is a nice little bit of fanservice.
But, yes, over all its all a bit meh. While I don't think I could very be truly apathetic toward Star Trek this is the one I've watched the least. Only three or four times. There just not a lot of drag you back in.
Pretty spot on. As some one mentioned, it's like a long episode.
I loved the ram scoop maneuver and opening with Data "malfunctioning". I didn't mind the kid but the love story between Picard and Anji tiresome. I like the banter between the regular cast in this too, felt much like the TOS cast in their movies. And the scene where Geordi gets to watch a his first real sunset is a nice little bit of fanservice.
But, yes, over all its all a bit meh. While I don't think I could very be truly apathetic toward Star Trek this is the one I've watched the least. Only three or four times. There just not a lot of drag you back in.
Fanible
That was the main problem I had with it. It felt less like a movie, and more like an episode. And one of the more boring episodes at that.
That was the main problem I had with it. It felt less like a movie, and more like an episode. And one of the more boring episodes at that.
sshuttari
When I was a kid. This is the first "Star Trek" movie I saw in theatres... and as a 5th grader. I really enjoyed it and got introduced to "Star Trek: Voyager" which I ended up watching with my sister religiously.
So... Yeah... "Insurrection" has a special place in my heart as a child. And I'm glad it introduced me to the World of Star Trek.
But the movie does feel like a very expensive episode. Which is not a bad thing at all... And has some of the best Worf moments in any movie.
When I was a kid. This is the first "Star Trek" movie I saw in theatres... and as a 5th grader. I really enjoyed it and got introduced to "Star Trek: Voyager" which I ended up watching with my sister religiously.
So... Yeah... "Insurrection" has a special place in my heart as a child. And I'm glad it introduced me to the World of Star Trek.
But the movie does feel like a very expensive episode. Which is not a bad thing at all... And has some of the best Worf moments in any movie.
Wyldstaar
My biggest problem with Insurrection is that it's more or less the same basic plot as one of the episodes of TNG in which a planet colonized by Native Americans is being forcibly removed by the Federation. In that story, Picard and the crew of the Enterprise did the exact opposite of how they handled the situation with the Baku. Picard was furious at Wesley for refusing to go along with Starfleet orders to remove the colonists.
My biggest problem with Insurrection is that it's more or less the same basic plot as one of the episodes of TNG in which a planet colonized by Native Americans is being forcibly removed by the Federation. In that story, Picard and the crew of the Enterprise did the exact opposite of how they handled the situation with the Baku. Picard was furious at Wesley for refusing to go along with Starfleet orders to remove the colonists.
Nemesis Discussion
Dracula
Ouch, yeah I kinda figured it'd get a nice D from you I haven't heard much good about it. I just watched "First Contact" last night and I really enjoyed it so I'm not too excited about "Insurrection" and "Nemesis" but I've seen worse.
Ouch, yeah I kinda figured it'd get a nice D from you I haven't heard much good about it. I just watched "First Contact" last night and I really enjoyed it so I'm not too excited about "Insurrection" and "Nemesis" but I've seen worse.
Knerys
I cannot stress how mad Data's death made me when it first came out. And it for every reason you illustrate here.
I don't blame you for giving this a "D". There are elements I like, the involvement of the Romulans (though under utilized), Shinzon himself (despite the writing flaws) and most of the central themes are worthy of Star Trek. But bad direction, dopey action and emotional cheap shots pull it all down.
It was difficult to see the crew I grew up watching and loving not get the ceremonial send off as the TOS crew did. The management at that time was sloppy and indifferent. Really disappointing time for Trek fans. :/
I cannot stress how mad Data's death made me when it first came out. And it for every reason you illustrate here.
I don't blame you for giving this a "D". There are elements I like, the involvement of the Romulans (though under utilized), Shinzon himself (despite the writing flaws) and most of the central themes are worthy of Star Trek. But bad direction, dopey action and emotional cheap shots pull it all down.
It was difficult to see the crew I grew up watching and loving not get the ceremonial send off as the TOS crew did. The management at that time was sloppy and indifferent. Really disappointing time for Trek fans. :/
Dracula
I remember liking it more than that last time I saw it, but it's been a while and I'm probably not in too much of a position to launch a defense. It is certainly flawed, but I liked the action scenes more, especially the space battle at the end.
I remember liking it more than that last time I saw it, but it's been a while and I'm probably not in too much of a position to launch a defense. It is certainly flawed, but I liked the action scenes more, especially the space battle at the end.
JBond
But deaths DO just happen, that part doesn't bother me about Nemesis. I mean, they fight aliens and black holes for a living. It bothered me because B4's presence is ONLY in the movie to be the next Data and it's really, really transparent...and exactly like Spock.
But deaths DO just happen, that part doesn't bother me about Nemesis. I mean, they fight aliens and black holes for a living. It bothered me because B4's presence is ONLY in the movie to be the next Data and it's really, really transparent...and exactly like Spock.
Star Trek (09)
Dracula
Yep, that is about right. I've never been able fully dimiss the Abrams flicks because they are well made and entertaining, but really don't hold to the spirit of the original Trek films and are at their core just really dumb.
I haven't revisited Into Darkness yet but the more I think about it the stupider it seems.
Yep, that is about right. I've never been able fully dimiss the Abrams flicks because they are well made and entertaining, but really don't hold to the spirit of the original Trek films and are at their core just really dumb.
I haven't revisited Into Darkness yet but the more I think about it the stupider it seems.
Conclusion
Knerys
I've really enjoyed reading your perspective of the franchise as a non trekkie, PG. Star Trek is such a major influence on my life that sometimes you can get lost in the nostalgia of it. And my bias is heavy. I'm glad you got something out of it overall.
I've really enjoyed reading your perspective of the franchise as a non trekkie, PG. Star Trek is such a major influence on my life that sometimes you can get lost in the nostalgia of it. And my bias is heavy. I'm glad you got something out of it overall.
PG Cooper
Thank you very much! I'm honoured to hear a true Trek fan enjoyed this. And yeah, I got a lot out of this. Star Trek is an important achievement in science-fiction and a pop-culture icon. I'm glad to have that under my belt. Beyond that, some of the films are really damn good.
Thank you very much! I'm honoured to hear a true Trek fan enjoyed this. And yeah, I got a lot out of this. Star Trek is an important achievement in science-fiction and a pop-culture icon. I'm glad to have that under my belt. Beyond that, some of the films are really damn good.
