Neverending
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Post by Neverending on Nov 8, 2020 1:25:19 GMT -5
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PG Cooper
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Post by PG Cooper on Nov 8, 2020 9:16:59 GMT -5
And I push back on the label of fascist for Trump, Obama or just about anyone from either side because we know what fascists are. I've personally known people who have fought actual, literal fascists and I bet other folks on these boards have known people of the same generation. The people we know would usually step up to fight those fascists around the time when the fascists would subjugate and systematically exterminate tens of millions of people. So when Trump comes out and says 'hey maybe I'll run for a third term' because he's an idiot and the media goes 'fascist!' it just makes them sound petty. If you want to call Trump a fascists for gumming up the works of this transfer of power you can, I think he aligns more with the 'thin-skinned dickhead' label more than 'fascist.' If he's truly a fascist then he's the worst, least successful fascist in history. Idk man, your defense for why Trump isn't a fascist reminds me a lot of this: Like yeah, things didn't escalate to those extremes you mention and maybe it is erroneous to label him a fascist full-stop, but the signs to where things were leading (and in many ways still are given the guy still hasn't conceded to a loss of power) are there. Calling him a fascist is not to diminish the power of the word or its history, it's to recognize where things are going and stop it before it reaches a more dire point. Anyway, I get the point your making. It feels like both sides are continuously bickering and nothing ever gets done. But at the very least I think the left's claims of Trump being a racist/fascist/white supremacist who could destroy the world are rooted in more fact than Fox News positioning Joe Biden as the love child of Lenin and Marx.
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1godzillafan
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Post by 1godzillafan on Nov 8, 2020 11:34:48 GMT -5
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Wyldstaar
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Post by Wyldstaar on Nov 8, 2020 12:12:20 GMT -5
PG Cooper Foo Fighters. Your dad’s favorite band. Too young. My Dad's favourite band is Motorhead. You're lucky. My Dad's favorite is Neil Diamond. The horror.. the horror...
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PG Cooper
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Post by PG Cooper on Nov 8, 2020 12:18:54 GMT -5
Too young. My Dad's favourite band is Motorhead. You're lucky. My Dad's favorite is Neil Diamond. The horror.. the horror... Ha. My Dad likes Diamond too.
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1godzillafan
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Post by 1godzillafan on Nov 8, 2020 12:38:43 GMT -5
My dad's a Johnny Cash guy.
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Dracula
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Post by Dracula on Nov 8, 2020 13:11:28 GMT -5
My dad is into Journey
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Doomsday
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Post by Doomsday on Nov 8, 2020 13:14:45 GMT -5
You're right, that's all they did. They did it to the point where they were hyperventilating about every single thing the guy did. Now you've done it, you're making me sound like I'm defending the guy but if you're someone who voted for Trump and you're seeing people in the media constantly gripe about him for four years and that the only people worse than Trump are the ones who support him I don't think you'd be open to hearing what the other side might have to say. And there's a vast difference between calling a guy something and calling his supporters, people you ideally would want voting with you and for your candidates, the exact same thing hence me bringing it up in my last post. I've said it before on here before and with people IRL and it's always met with immense pushback (naturally) but it's mindblowing, absolutely inexplicable, how some folks can't do the basic math that 'if we call people racists all the time, they might not vote for us. In fact, they might vote for someone awful. Someone like Donald Trump.' It completely escapes hard liberals but makes perfect sense to literally everybody else. Did you hear of that now infamous phone call between House Dems a couple days ago? There was that one woman who's name escapes me and I'm too lazy to look up who said something to the effect of 'we can't spend our time defending socialism and expect to win. We can't spend our time saying 'defund the police' and calling people bigots and expect not to get beat.' Most of America would read that and go 'yeah, no shit.' But of course she got flamed by AOC and other people in her party. I know that people think of themselves as 'standing up for justice' or whatever but the steadfast refusal of the hard left to acknowledge their role in getting Trump elected is, well, it's what got Trump elected. And yeah Biden beat him (barely) but those House, Senate and statehouse races all tell a different story. It's just funny whenever someone like me says 'If you want to court voters maybe don't call them racists' and the immediate answer is 'NO!' I should point out that 90% of what you're talking about is being done by online hot take writers and academics and not actual Democrat politicians (who are about as retrained and disciplined a lot as you can possibly expect). Joe Biden, Chuck Schumer, and Nancy Pelosi are not running around shouting "fuck the police and proletariat of the world, unite!" and Bernie Sanders is noticeably not the party's candidate. I'm not sure what this "infamous phone call" you speak of is (I've kind of been avoiding a lot of news the last week or so because it was stressing me) but the strategy this lady is outlining is more or less exactly what the Democrats were running on. Are there some loudmouths out there? Sure. But you can't exactly expect every person who's vaguely affiliated with the left wing of American politics to be disciplined to the point where they aren't going to point out that the people voting for Mr. Build a Wall and Ban Muslims might be engaging in some racial animus. There's only so much denial that people are going to engage in. www.businessinsider.com/aoc-spars-with-centrist-democrats-after-unexpected-house-losses-2020-11This sums up the phone call that's making its rounds online pretty well. Rep. Abigail Spanberger is her name and she and others have been doing some finger-pointing as to why the Democrats lost a ton of their other elections that they were hoping/projecting to win. Naturally there's been pushback from others. But I'll end with this quote from Michelle Obama from earlier in the week that I just read this morning. Now she may not be President but behind Barack she's probably the most popular figure in the Democratic party. You might agree with her or think she has a good point but I can tell you anyone who voted for Trump either enthusiastically or reluctantly is going to read this and think to themselves 'this is why I never vote for you guys. ' "Let’s remember that tens of millions of people voted for the status quo, even when it meant supporting lies, hate, chaos, and division," she wrote. "We’ve got a lot of work to do to reach out to these folks in the years ahead and connect with them on what unites us."
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Neverending
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Post by Neverending on Nov 8, 2020 13:22:31 GMT -5
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Doomsday
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Post by Doomsday on Nov 8, 2020 13:25:42 GMT -5
And I push back on the label of fascist for Trump, Obama or just about anyone from either side because we know what fascists are. I've personally known people who have fought actual, literal fascists and I bet other folks on these boards have known people of the same generation. The people we know would usually step up to fight those fascists around the time when the fascists would subjugate and systematically exterminate tens of millions of people. So when Trump comes out and says 'hey maybe I'll run for a third term' because he's an idiot and the media goes 'fascist!' it just makes them sound petty. If you want to call Trump a fascists for gumming up the works of this transfer of power you can, I think he aligns more with the 'thin-skinned dickhead' label more than 'fascist.' If he's truly a fascist then he's the worst, least successful fascist in history. Idk man, your defense for why Trump isn't a fascist reminds me a lot of this: Like yeah, things didn't escalate to those extremes you mention and maybe it is erroneous to label him a fascist full-stop, but the signs to where things were leading (and in many ways still are given the guy still hasn't conceded to a loss of power) are there. Calling him a fascist is not to diminish the power of the word or its history, it's to recognize where things are going and stop it before it reaches a more dire point. Anyway, I get the point your making. It feels like both sides are continuously bickering and nothing ever gets done. But at the very least I think the left's claims of Trump being a racist/fascist/white supremacist who could destroy the world are rooted in more fact than Fox News positioning Joe Biden as the love child of Lenin and Marx. Let me put it another way. This is a question that I've heard people pose before, is Trump a brain-dead moron or is he a diabolical, tyrannical genius? I don't give him nearly as much credit as his critics, I think he's an idiot. He's never been in politics, he never went to law school, I don't think he knows what he's saying half the time and almost all of it is just to gin up his base. If you think his comments come from a place of fascistic endeavor that's okay, I think it comes from a place of total and complete ignorance of just about everything.
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Neverending
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Post by Neverending on Nov 8, 2020 13:36:36 GMT -5
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PG Cooper
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Post by PG Cooper on Nov 8, 2020 13:37:48 GMT -5
Idk man, your defense for why Trump isn't a fascist reminds me a lot of this: Like yeah, things didn't escalate to those extremes you mention and maybe it is erroneous to label him a fascist full-stop, but the signs to where things were leading (and in many ways still are given the guy still hasn't conceded to a loss of power) are there. Calling him a fascist is not to diminish the power of the word or its history, it's to recognize where things are going and stop it before it reaches a more dire point. Anyway, I get the point your making. It feels like both sides are continuously bickering and nothing ever gets done. But at the very least I think the left's claims of Trump being a racist/fascist/white supremacist who could destroy the world are rooted in more fact than Fox News positioning Joe Biden as the love child of Lenin and Marx. Let me put it another way. This is a question that I've heard people pose before, is Trump a brain-dead moron or is he a diabolical, tyrannical genius? I don't give him nearly as much credit as his critics, I think he's an idiot. He's never been in politics, he never went to law school, I don't think he knows what he's saying half the time and almost all of it is just to gin up his base. If you think his comments come from a place of fascistic endeavor that's okay, I think it comes from a place of total and complete ignorance of just about everything. I mean, I agree that he's an ignorant buffoon and I'm always skeptical when people claim a Trump gaff is some elaborate attempt at 4D chess. But he doesn't have to be a Machiavellian genius to embrace fascist qualities.
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1godzillafan
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Post by 1godzillafan on Nov 8, 2020 14:23:41 GMT -5
I don't know about fascism, but my view of Trump is largely that he's politically ignorant, but he knows how to rile people up in ways that he wants (both positively and negatively), which is an outstanding tool in politics. The Republicans saw him as a powerful weapon because they needed something big and bold to challenge Hillary Clinton, and they tried to wield that weapon. But Trump's so much of a loose cannon, it came off like they were Donald Duck loading that cannon in a WWII era cartoon. For better or worse, they tried to stick with him 100%, even when he was doing something absurdly stupid. I'll never forget watching the impeachment hearing at the House earlier this year while most Democrats stuck with the facts of the evidence they were looking at (a few just attacked Trump's character), just about every Republican there just had the argument of "GODDAMN MOTHERFUCKING LIBS!" without arguing against any of the claims being made. And when some assclown brought out the district map of the 2016 election as "proof" Trump shouldn't have been impeached, it was enough to put me off the Republican party forever.
I know Trump isn't an evil genius. I won't say for certain about tyrant, dictator, fascist, or racist, those are for someone else to lay claim on. I do know one thing about Trump, and it's that he's a lying asshole. That's enough for me.
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Post by Neverending on Nov 8, 2020 14:32:05 GMT -5
El Chapo is building schools in Mexico while being imprisoned in America. Trump can’t even pretend to care about Covid. That’s how bad Trump is; guys worse than the Mexican cartel.
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1godzillafan
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Post by 1godzillafan on Nov 8, 2020 14:42:32 GMT -5
Trump is Dave Chappelle's insult comic from the Nutty Professor remake if he were President of the United States.
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Dracula
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Post by Dracula on Nov 8, 2020 15:29:18 GMT -5
I should point out that 90% of what you're talking about is being done by online hot take writers and academics and not actual Democrat politicians (who are about as retrained and disciplined a lot as you can possibly expect). Joe Biden, Chuck Schumer, and Nancy Pelosi are not running around shouting "fuck the police and proletariat of the world, unite!" and Bernie Sanders is noticeably not the party's candidate. I'm not sure what this "infamous phone call" you speak of is (I've kind of been avoiding a lot of news the last week or so because it was stressing me) but the strategy this lady is outlining is more or less exactly what the Democrats were running on. Are there some loudmouths out there? Sure. But you can't exactly expect every person who's vaguely affiliated with the left wing of American politics to be disciplined to the point where they aren't going to point out that the people voting for Mr. Build a Wall and Ban Muslims might be engaging in some racial animus. There's only so much denial that people are going to engage in. www.businessinsider.com/aoc-spars-with-centrist-democrats-after-unexpected-house-losses-2020-11This sums up the phone call that's making its rounds online pretty well. Rep. Abigail Spanberger is her name and she and others have been doing some finger-pointing as to why the Democrats lost a ton of their other elections that they were hoping/projecting to win. Naturally there's been pushback from others. But I'll end with this quote from Michelle Obama from earlier in the week that I just read this morning. Now she may not be President but behind Barack she's probably the most popular figure in the Democratic party. You might agree with her or think she has a good point but I can tell you anyone who voted for Trump either enthusiastically or reluctantly is going to read this and think to themselves 'this is why I never vote for you guys. ' "Let’s remember that tens of millions of people voted for the status quo, even when it meant supporting lies, hate, chaos, and division," she wrote. "We’ve got a lot of work to do to reach out to these folks in the years ahead and connect with them on what unites us."Okay, that article sounds like some pretty routine dem infighting, and compared to what Twitter was like during the primary there really isn't anything terribly shocking about it. The left and moderate wings of the party have been going at it like that for the better part of the last four years. I'm probably more on Spanberger's side of the argument than AOC's but I wouldn't extrapolate too much from this call's existence. As for that Michelle Obama quote... what is supposed to be so offensive about that? She's basically agreeing with everything you're saying, that there needs to be more work in reaching out to the redder areas of the country. Let me put it another way. This is a question that I've heard people pose before, is Trump a brain-dead moron or is he a diabolical, tyrannical genius? I don't give him nearly as much credit as his critics, I think he's an idiot. He's never been in politics, he never went to law school, I don't think he knows what he's saying half the time and almost all of it is just to gin up his base. If you think his comments come from a place of fascistic endeavor that's okay, I think it comes from a place of total and complete ignorance of just about everything. You kind of seem to be missing the point. Trump wanted to be a dictator, but wasn't effective enough to pull it off. The two are not mutually exclusive. Hitler probably wasn't the smartest person in the world either, but things went slightly better for him and he managed to wreak untold chaos and death because of it. Trump fortunately got thwarted before he could completely undermine democracy, but like, you're not going to just immediately forgive someone who tried to kill you just because they fucked up and ended shooting themselves in the foot instead.
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Doomsday
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Post by Doomsday on Nov 8, 2020 17:12:07 GMT -5
As for that Michelle Obama quote... what is supposed to be so offensive about that? She's basically agreeing with everything you're saying, that there needs to be more work in reaching out to the redder areas of the country. Because nobody votes so they can be insulted. Her comment is predicated on the idea that people voted the way they did because they wanted to support lies, chaos etc. Maybe you think that was the case, I'm sure many people do but I'm just saying that nobody is going to vote differently because of comments like that, on the contrary they'll only entrench themselves in their current convictions. 4 years of President Donald Trump is evidence of that. I've been saying that for the past 4, 8, 12 years, you aren't going to change peoples' minds by telling them that they're flawed and wrong-thinking. Let me put it this way, if a Republican said 'we want to reach across the aisle and gladly work hand in hand with the other side even though they voted to support baby-killing, letting illegal immigrants flood into the country, creating a permanent welfare nanny state and cutting our military to the bone' I don't think a lot of people on the left would be anxious to work with him. They'd probably say 'that guy can go fuck himself' and rightfully so. You kind of seem to be missing the point. Trump wanted to be a dictator, but wasn't effective enough to pull it off. The two are not mutually exclusive. Hitler probably wasn't the smartest person in the world either, but things went slightly better for him and he managed to wreak untold chaos and death because of it. Trump fortunately got thwarted before he could completely undermine democracy, but like, you're not going to just immediately forgive someone who tried to kill you just because they fucked up and ended shooting themselves in the foot instead. I just disagree that Trump wanted to be a dictator. Like I said, I think he was an idiot who didn't even know the extent or limitations of his executive powers. Either he was an ignoramus or a wannabe dictator who failed every single step of the way. I personally believe it was the former.
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Frizzo the Clown
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Post by Frizzo the Clown on Nov 8, 2020 17:29:50 GMT -5
Too young. My Dad's favourite band is Motorhead. You're lucky. My Dad's favorite is Neil Diamond. The horror.. the horror... My Dad's is The Moody Blues.
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Neverending
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Post by Neverending on Nov 8, 2020 18:10:40 GMT -5
Can’t wait for Doomsday’s kids to be old enough to say, “my dad’s favorite band is Limp Bizkit.”
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Dracula
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Post by Dracula on Nov 8, 2020 18:21:25 GMT -5
As for that Michelle Obama quote... what is supposed to be so offensive about that? She's basically agreeing with everything you're saying, that there needs to be more work in reaching out to the redder areas of the country. Her comment is predicated on the idea that people voted the way they did because they wanted to support lies, chaos etc. But... they did. These aren't Mitt Romney voters we're talking about, they're Trump voters. Trump was a guy who said the quiet part loud. He lied on a nearly hourly basis in ways that were transparent and obvious, he constantly race baited, he did wily erratic and chaotic things to control the news cycle, and divided people at every possible opportunity. These aren't subjective opinions about the guy they were basically his brand and it would be wildly patronizing to suggest that his voters were too stupid to see it. If they didn't want to be seen that way, they probably should have voted for someone else and frankly it's kind of ridiculous to expect anyone to run against a guy without pointing out his obvious flaws what voting for him says about you. Let me put it this way, if a Republican said 'we want to reach across the aisle and gladly work hand in hand with the other side even though they voted to support baby-killing, letting illegal immigrants flood into the country, creating a permanent welfare nanny state and cutting our military to the bone' I don't think a lot of people on the left would be anxious to work with him. They'd probably say 'that guy can go fuck himself' and rightfully so. Yeah, that would probably be a bad campaign ad. But that Michelle Obama quote isn't a campaign ad. I do think activists could stand to be a bit more mindful of what they say at times, but you cannot realistically expect human being to spend their entire lives speaking with perfect diplomatic discipline at all times, especially when that means speaking around very obvious and apparent things (like the fact that Donald Trump's campaign was fucking hateful), doing that would make everyone sound like a robot that's oblivious to the world around them. And frankly, if that innocuous quote is the most stridently partisan thing you can find you either really aren't looking very hard or there really isn't that much out there. I just disagree that Trump wanted to be a dictator. Like I said, I think he was an idiot who didn't even know the extent or limitations of his executive powers. Either he was an ignoramus or a wannabe dictator who failed every single step of the way. I personally believe it was the former. This is largely a distinction without a difference. His desire for unlimited power was readily apparent and he said and did all sorts of highly authoritarian things to do it. The fucking guy tried to sabotage the U.S. mail in order to keep power and is actively trying to get his crony judges to throw the election after the fact and a whole lot of other things. And frankly, just saying he was too stupid to know what he was doing is kind of ridiculous. He was dumb but he wasn't that dumb. He's a 74-year-old college graduate who ran a multi-million dollar corporation, he knows how the world works and he knows that what he was doing was decidedly not normal.
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1godzillafan
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Post by 1godzillafan on Nov 8, 2020 18:41:25 GMT -5
I don't know if this settles anything or answers anything about Trump's dictator-like tendencies or whatever, but has anybody listened to Penn Jillette talk about Trump? I mean, none of us have been in a room with Trump but he has. Some of it is interesting, and he seems to hit some of the points you guys are making. Neverending, here's a Joe Rogan one that you'll watch.
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Doomsday
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Post by Doomsday on Nov 9, 2020 13:00:52 GMT -5
Can’t wait for Doomsday ’s kids to be old enough to say, “my dad’s favorite band is Limp Bizkit.” Anyone who says they weren't playing Significant Other 24/7 back in 1999 is a damn liar.
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Post by 1godzillafan on Nov 9, 2020 13:08:21 GMT -5
We all know Doomsday was into Hanson back in 1999.
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Doomsday
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Post by Doomsday on Nov 9, 2020 13:12:58 GMT -5
I do think activists could stand to be a bit more mindful of what they say at times That's it. That's all I'm trying to say. You and I probably agree way more than we disagree when it comes to Trump as a person and his abilities as a leader, I just think that if the game is to tempt voters to the Democratic side it would serve their argument well to be more mindful as to the approach. He was dumb but he wasn't that dumb. I'll meet you halfway. I think he approached the Presidency as owning his own company, doing whatever he wanted, saying whatever he wanted, threatening people, thinking he answer to no one and trying to make things happen outside proper procedures of which I think he was more or less ignorant, willfully ignorant toward the end I'm sure. He surrounded himself with family and yes-men from his inner circle who just jerked him off the whole time and ignored advice from anyone else. Bad leader? Sure. But dictator, I just hesitate to use that term especially when the incompetence is on full display.
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Post by Doomsday on Nov 9, 2020 13:14:21 GMT -5
We all know Doomsday was into Hanson back in 1999. Wrong again!
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