thebtskink
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Post by thebtskink on Nov 9, 2016 12:47:23 GMT -5
There's still, like, 2 or 3 states that haven't finished counting yet. Hillary is still leading the popular vote, but not by much. The difference between her and Trump is in the thousands. Really, this is just discouraging people from voting. Hillary could win by ONE vote and it wouldn't matter. Trump is already the winner. Fuck the electoral college. Has there ever been a time they didn't fuck us? Every time but 4 or 5?
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Neverending
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Post by Neverending on Nov 9, 2016 13:21:22 GMT -5
There's still, like, 2 or 3 states that haven't finished counting yet. Hillary is still leading the popular vote, but not by much. The difference between her and Trump is in the thousands. Really, this is just discouraging people from voting. Hillary could win by ONE vote and it wouldn't matter. Trump is already the winner. Fuck the electoral college. Has there ever been a time they didn't fuck us? Every time but 4 or 5? I just checked. John Quincy Adams, Rutherford Hayes, George W. Bush and now Donald Trump. That makes my point even stronger. The electoral college has never been needed. Even when we THINK it's needed, it ultimately wasn't needed. It's pointless and has fucked us 4 times. We haven't fully recovered from George W. Bush and they give us another President who the majority didn't vote for? That's bullshit.
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SnoBorderZero
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Post by SnoBorderZero on Nov 9, 2016 13:31:33 GMT -5
There's still, like, 2 or 3 states that haven't finished counting yet. Hillary is still leading the popular vote, but not by much. The difference between her and Trump is in the thousands. Really, this is just discouraging people from voting. Hillary could win by ONE vote and it wouldn't matter. Trump is already the winner. Fuck the electoral college. Has there ever been a time they didn't fuck us? Al Gore is still pissed. It was hard on him, he went from being the rightful President of the United States to the President of the Manbearpig Association. He never recovered.
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Neverending
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Post by Neverending on Nov 9, 2016 14:30:03 GMT -5
The next 4 years should be invested in either building a strong third party or rebuilding the Democratic Party. Despite all the protests from Dracula and thebtskink , Bernie Sanders and Elizabeth Warren were the right choices. The hatred for Hillary was stronger than the hate for Trump. It's that simple. It might be time to groom Cory Booker. Meanwhile, third parties need a celebrity.
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SnoBorderZero
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Post by SnoBorderZero on Nov 9, 2016 14:53:27 GMT -5
Yup, we got fucked over by the DNC and their bullshit. No way Bernie loses to Trump.
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Dracula
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Post by Dracula on Nov 9, 2016 15:18:50 GMT -5
But those people are deplorable... or at least a basket of them are. Yes, not arguing that. But using that rhetoric will only increase support for the opposition. Hell, even throwing around terms like "privilege" did. It's not like it was Clinton's campaign slogan, it was something she said once and then apologized. How many stupid things did Trump say at any given rally? A lot.
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Dracula
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Post by Dracula on Nov 9, 2016 15:28:53 GMT -5
The next 4 years should be invested in either building a strong third party or rebuilding the Democratic Party. Despite all the protests from Dracula and thebtskink , Bernie Sanders and Elizabeth Warren were the right choices. The hatred for Hillary was stronger than the hate for Trump. It's that simple. It might be time to groom Cory Booker. Meanwhile, third parties need a celebrity. Yup, we got fucked over by the DNC and their bullshit. No way Bernie loses to Trump. You're both delusional. Sanders seems like he was going to have a better chance in retrospect largely because he was never vetted. Clinton never attacked him because she didn't want to turn off his supporters and the Republicans never attacked him because they didn't think he was a threat. Had he become the candidate his many weaknesses would have become readily apparent.
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thebtskink
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Post by thebtskink on Nov 9, 2016 15:38:29 GMT -5
Yup, we got fucked over by the DNC and their bullshit. No way Bernie loses to Trump. You are severely underestimating the power of the word "socialism"
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SnoBorderZero
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Post by SnoBorderZero on Nov 9, 2016 16:12:12 GMT -5
I don't like socialism, but I have a hard time believing he would lose. In the end what did Hillary in was her scandals moreso than her policies. This election proved that people are far more likely to vote with their heart than their brain, and Clinton could not overcome the stigma that she can't be trusted. Republicans might not agree with Bernie's ideologies, but they didn't have bad things to say about the guy because he's not shady and he's voted the same way his entire life. Sure, Bernie would have to soften some of his liberal stances which maybe was too much of a compromise for him to even get to the presidency. But he did also represent the change and challenging of Washington that resonated with voters in this election. The DNC thought Clinton was a safer, more appealing choice, and in terms of pure politics they were right. But people are fed up with politicians and their constant mishandling of government, and in the end Clinton couldn't convince enough people that she was any different.
Maybe I am being a bit of an idealist when it comes to Bernie, but Trump hasn't put any actual policies forward with any real plan for even making these ludicrous things happen and he's now our President. Bernie would've beaten Trump, I truly believe that.
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Dracula
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Post by Dracula on Nov 9, 2016 16:35:49 GMT -5
I don't like socialism, but I have a hard time believing he would lose. In the end what did Hillary in was her scandals moreso than her policies. This election proved that people are far more likely to vote with their heart than their brain, and Clinton could not overcome the stigma that she can't be trusted. Republicans might not agree with Bernie's ideologies, but they didn't have bad things to say about the guy because he's not shady and he's voted the same way his entire life. Sure, Bernie would have to soften some of his liberal stances which maybe was too much of a compromise for him to even get to the presidency. But he did also represent the change and challenging of Washington that resonated with voters in this election. The DNC thought Clinton was a safer, more appealing choice, and in terms of pure politics they were right. But people are fed up with politicians and their constant mishandling of government, and in the end Clinton couldn't convince enough people that she was any different. Maybe I am being a bit of an idealist when it comes to Bernie, but Trump hasn't put any actual policies forward with any real plan for even making these ludicrous things happen and he's now our President. Bernie would've beaten Trump, I truly believe that. Nah, the focus on scandals was always bullshit. People were just looking for excuses to vote for the racist. That's why the Comey thing seemed to have an inordinate influence on the polls: people who were embarrassed to be Trump supporters were lying to the pollsters the whole time and felt emboldened by a "scandal"
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thebtskink
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Post by thebtskink on Nov 9, 2016 16:47:35 GMT -5
I just think middle America would never vote a self proclaimed socialist.
It's a dirty word for rubes.
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Doomsday
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Post by Doomsday on Nov 9, 2016 18:23:57 GMT -5
So does that mean no more Samantha Bee clips?
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SnoBorderZero
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Post by SnoBorderZero on Nov 9, 2016 19:02:45 GMT -5
I don't like socialism, but I have a hard time believing he would lose. In the end what did Hillary in was her scandals moreso than her policies. This election proved that people are far more likely to vote with their heart than their brain, and Clinton could not overcome the stigma that she can't be trusted. Republicans might not agree with Bernie's ideologies, but they didn't have bad things to say about the guy because he's not shady and he's voted the same way his entire life. Sure, Bernie would have to soften some of his liberal stances which maybe was too much of a compromise for him to even get to the presidency. But he did also represent the change and challenging of Washington that resonated with voters in this election. The DNC thought Clinton was a safer, more appealing choice, and in terms of pure politics they were right. But people are fed up with politicians and their constant mishandling of government, and in the end Clinton couldn't convince enough people that she was any different. Maybe I am being a bit of an idealist when it comes to Bernie, but Trump hasn't put any actual policies forward with any real plan for even making these ludicrous things happen and he's now our President. Bernie would've beaten Trump, I truly believe that. Nah, the focus on scandals was always bullshit. People were just looking for excuses to vote for the racist. That's why the Comey thing seemed to have an inordinate influence on the polls: people who were embarrassed to be Trump supporters were lying to the pollsters the whole time and felt emboldened by a "scandal" And isn't that just so sad? That people were embarrassed to say they were voting for him, hence why nobody had an even remotely accurate poll. I mean look, I didn't enjoy voting for Hillary, I wasn't proud to do it like I was for Obama the last two times. But my god I wouldn't be outright embarrassed about it. Isn't that a sign that if you feel morally guilty for voting for Trump that he probably shouldn't be the most powerful man in the world?
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Doomsday
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Post by Doomsday on Nov 9, 2016 19:23:53 GMT -5
They weren't embarrassed because they didn't like the guy, they were secretive with their selection because they knew they'd get ripped a new one if they so much as suggested to any liberal they knew that they were considering voting for Donald Trump. I made this post a couple months ago. As for Trump. I think I can speak to this seeing as how I was raised in a pretty affluent, white conservative area and know the mindset. Most, I'll say most conservatives/Republicans despise Trump. They don't like him, they think he's a buffoon, they think he's going to cost them an election that has been handed to Republicans on a silver platter and they're right to be frustrated. They just hate Clinton more than Trump just like liberals don't like Clinton but they'll take her over Trump. But Trump isn't a product of a 'huge, racist, xenophobic' section of our society. You can spin it that way if you choose but Trump is a product of the past few years of (mostly white) people being told that everything bad in society is their fault, they all have 'white privilege' i.e. they didn't earn anything they have and it was all handed to them, they're racist even at an unconscious level that they don't realize, and that any opinion they have is tainted by their whiteness. 'You're white so you can't comment on immigration.' 'You're white so you can't say anything about racial tensions, you just can't relate.' Compounding that is constant media coverage of students on college campuses and even high schools nationwide saying how 'racist' the colleges are and need the 'safe spaces' and 'mandatory diversity seminars' and a certain percentage of the faculty and student body being minorities. Finally, add the Black Lives Matter movement that has helped draw racial lines even deeper than they were already regardless of the original intent. So with your average working class white person seeing all that on an almost daily basis they've collectively gone 'fuck it, I'm done. I'm tired of being told I'm a bad person because of my race (which is somehow not racist), I'm tired of being told I don't deserve what I have and haven't worked hard for what I've earned, I'm tired of being told that I'm a bigot for having an opinion on just about anything and I want someone who's going to change that.' So here comes Donald Trump, a household name with a ton of money (meaning he won't be tied to lobbyists, theoretically) and says he's going to take a hatchet to all of this. He won't but that's what he says he'll do. That's appealing to all these people who are tired of being told that we live in this hugely racist society when most Americans are anything but racist. At least that's where I think Trump-ism has come from and I think I'm pretty dead on. Are there some racists who back him? Sure, but 98% of them aren't motivated by racism, they're motivated by a sense of wanting to change things that they think are taking us on a downward spiral. Not saying I agree with all of it, just merely my observation. There have been several articles and blog posts saying this but simply put, the Left has spent the past 8 years saying that anyone who doesn't sit on their side of the aisle is a racist, misogynist, homophobic, xenophobic, Islamaphobic, transphobic bigot. Most people, a lion's share of people in the country are none of those things however they're sick and tired of being told that they are. 'Don't like illegal immigration? You must hate Mexicans. Don't like abortion? You must hate women. Don't like Obamacare? You must hate poor people. And you're white? Then you're just bad period.' People had enough of it. There are obviously a lot of factors for why Trump won and Clinton lost but one of them is certainly the rhetoric of the Left and the brushes they tried to use to paint not just conservatives but anyone who disagreed with them. Not to say that the Right/Trump supporters didn't have their share of vitriol but the Left has plenty of their own. Now you have a choice. You can double down on that rhetoric which some people are already doing. 'Clearly this election is proof that racism is alive and well!' or 'She lost because she's a woman!' or 'White people ruined it for everyone.' Or you can take any points that you disagree with and say why you disagree with them rather than call someone you don't see eye to eye with a terrible person. One of those methods contributed to your candidate losing Presidential election. The other one will gain you some respect and make you look like an adult. You can decide which one you wanna roll with.
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Jibbs
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Post by Jibbs on Nov 9, 2016 19:26:46 GMT -5
What'd I miss?
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PG Cooper
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Post by PG Cooper on Nov 9, 2016 19:33:38 GMT -5
They weren't embarrassed because they didn't like the guy, they were secretive with their selection because they knew they'd get ripped a new one if they so much as suggested to any liberal they knew that they were considering voting for Donald Trump. I made this post a couple months ago. As for Trump. I think I can speak to this seeing as how I was raised in a pretty affluent, white conservative area and know the mindset. Most, I'll say most conservatives/Republicans despise Trump. They don't like him, they think he's a buffoon, they think he's going to cost them an election that has been handed to Republicans on a silver platter and they're right to be frustrated. They just hate Clinton more than Trump just like liberals don't like Clinton but they'll take her over Trump. But Trump isn't a product of a 'huge, racist, xenophobic' section of our society. You can spin it that way if you choose but Trump is a product of the past few years of (mostly white) people being told that everything bad in society is their fault, they all have 'white privilege' i.e. they didn't earn anything they have and it was all handed to them, they're racist even at an unconscious level that they don't realize, and that any opinion they have is tainted by their whiteness. 'You're white so you can't comment on immigration.' 'You're white so you can't say anything about racial tensions, you just can't relate.' Compounding that is constant media coverage of students on college campuses and even high schools nationwide saying how 'racist' the colleges are and need the 'safe spaces' and 'mandatory diversity seminars' and a certain percentage of the faculty and student body being minorities. Finally, add the Black Lives Matter movement that has helped draw racial lines even deeper than they were already regardless of the original intent. So with your average working class white person seeing all that on an almost daily basis they've collectively gone 'fuck it, I'm done. I'm tired of being told I'm a bad person because of my race (which is somehow not racist), I'm tired of being told I don't deserve what I have and haven't worked hard for what I've earned, I'm tired of being told that I'm a bigot for having an opinion on just about anything and I want someone who's going to change that.' So here comes Donald Trump, a household name with a ton of money (meaning he won't be tied to lobbyists, theoretically) and says he's going to take a hatchet to all of this. He won't but that's what he says he'll do. That's appealing to all these people who are tired of being told that we live in this hugely racist society when most Americans are anything but racist. At least that's where I think Trump-ism has come from and I think I'm pretty dead on. Are there some racists who back him? Sure, but 98% of them aren't motivated by racism, they're motivated by a sense of wanting to change things that they think are taking us on a downward spiral. Not saying I agree with all of it, just merely my observation. There have been several articles and blog posts saying this but simply put, the Left has spent the past 8 years saying that anyone who doesn't sit on their side of the aisle is a racist, misogynist, homophobic, xenophobic, Islamaphobic, transphobic bigot. Most people, a lion's share of people in the country are none of those things however they're sick and tired of being told that they are. 'Don't like illegal immigration? You must hate Mexicans. Don't like abortion? You must hate women. Don't like Obamacare? You must hate poor people. And you're white? Then you're just bad period.' People had enough of it. There are obviously a lot of factors for why Trump won and Clinton lost but one of them is certainly the rhetoric of the Left and the brushes they tried to use to paint not just conservatives but anyone who disagreed with them. Not to say that the Right/Trump supporters didn't have their share of vitriol but the Left has plenty of their own. Now you have a choice. You can double down on that rhetoric which some people are already doing. 'Clearly this election is proof that racism is alive and well!' or 'She lost because she's a woman!' or 'White people ruined it for everyone.' Or you can take any points that you disagree with and say why you disagree with them rather than call someone you don't see eye to eye with a terrible person. One of those methods contributed to your candidate losing Presidential election. The other one will gain you some respect and make you look like an adult. You can decide which one you wanna roll with. There's a lot of truth here, but I think it's dangerous to dismiss the argument that racism played a key role in this election. Trump deliberately stirred racial tension, was endorsed by the KKK, and at one point a poll found that almost 20% of Trump supporters thought the freeing of American slaves was a mistake. That's racism at work. Maybe not every Trump supporter was a full-on racist, but a substantial portion were, and the rest either didn't realize the consequences his presidency posed to non-whites or they simply didn't care.
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Doomsday
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Post by Doomsday on Nov 9, 2016 19:47:02 GMT -5
20% I dunno, I haven't seen that poll but it sounds like it might be a wee bit biased....
But you're right, they didn't care. They didn't care about his comments on Muslims, they didn't care about 'grab her by the pussy,' they just wanted someone who would change the way they thought things were going. They had a choice between a guy who said he would essentially blow up the system and a woman who was the definition of Washington-as-usual politician.
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PG Cooper
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Post by PG Cooper on Nov 9, 2016 19:49:12 GMT -5
20% I dunno, I haven't seen that poll but it sounds like it might be a wee bit biased.... But you're right, they didn't care. They didn't care about his comments on Muslims, they didn't care about 'grab her by the pussy,' they just wanted someone who would change the way they thought things were going. They had a choice between a guy who said he would essentially blow up the system and a woman who was the definition of Washington-as-usual politician. I was talking about this today, but I think a lot of white people never even considered what the consequences would be for non-whites. Not all white people have black, Mexican, or (especially) Muslim friends so that didn't matter to them. It's why his pussy comments were probably the most damaging to him because everyone knows at least one woman. But I guess that too didn't matter.
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Ramplate
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Post by Ramplate on Nov 10, 2016 0:48:23 GMT -5
Well, what a Trump presidency will be remains to be seen. I am going to be observing cautiously and see what develops.
What he said he would do, and what he will be able to do are more than likely going to be two different things. What I wonder is what his followers will be doing.
Bernie was the better choice. He had less baggage than Hillary, and she obviously had people doing things on her behalf that tainted the process. Russia didn't help matters with their hacking, and Comey pissed off just about everyone at some point or another.
In any case, Bernie's revolution isn't exactly over and I think he needs our support to keep the left in the mix, especially since the right has the House and Senate
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Post by Neverending on Nov 10, 2016 1:03:01 GMT -5
Doomsday PG CooperRacism was a key part of Donald Trump's victory, but ultimately, people just don't like Hillary Clinton. Dracula SnoBorderZero thebtskinkBernie Sanders and Elizabeth Warren would have beat Trump. Clinton WON the popular vote. The polls weren't too far off. Sanders would have won Florida since he, for sure, would have gotten the Jew vote. That, plus California and New York which every liberal gets, is enough to beat Trump. It's simple math. Trump has 279 electoral votes. Take Florida away and he's at 250. Hillary has 228. Give her Florida and it's 257. The election would come down to the 31 electoral votes they haven't even counted yet. Michigan has 16 electoral votes and it's practically a third world country. Sanders-Warren could have fired up the base. That's 273. Boom. You're done. Even if Trump got Arizona and New Hampshire, it wouldn't be enough. That's 265.
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Post by Ramplate on Nov 10, 2016 1:39:17 GMT -5
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Dracula
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Post by Dracula on Nov 10, 2016 7:06:10 GMT -5
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Post by Neverending on Nov 10, 2016 8:31:52 GMT -5
68% of Jews voting Clinton and 28% voting Trump Bernie would have done better than 68%. Trump won Florida by only 1%. It was a VERY close race. Bernie getting, say, 70% could have made the difference. The primaries were rigged against Bernie. If Bernie hadn't been ignored by the media and if the Democrats had given him SOME support, we would be having a different discussion right now. But - whatever - I get it. You're a Bernie hater. So let's have a different conversation. Did Hillary fuck up by making Tim Kaine her running mate? Hillary never truly got the millennial support that Obama did - and she never fired up the liberal base. Meanwhile, Tim Kaine was totally irrelevant, and also, people accused him of corruption. He was the head of the DNC and stepped down so Debbie Whats-Her-Face could take over and "rig" the election for Hillary. It was obvious that Hillary, Kaine and Debbie pulled a giant shenanigans and that didn't do Hillary's image any favors. The ONLY running mate choice for Hillary was Elizabeth Warren. Yes, TWO women running might have alienated sexiest men but those assholes voted for Trump anyway. Warren was needed to get the millennial vote back AND fire up the base. Warren would have been as important to Hillary as Mike Pence is to Trump. NO LOVE likes Trump. NO ONE. The ONLY justification people give for voting Trump is that Mike Pence is the real President. Trump is just the showman. Whether that turns out to be true or not remains to be seen, but it is the assumption right now. People expect Pence to be the new Dick Cheney. So, basically, Hillary shot herself in the foot by ignoring Bernie and Warren and angering the progressive movement. Hillary WON the popular vote. There was definitely a chance for her to win the electoral vote. She just needed that little push. That's all. And she fucked it up by pissing off the youth and progressives.
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thebtskink
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Post by thebtskink on Nov 10, 2016 9:41:50 GMT -5
Bernie would not have won. Socialism is a dirty word to ignoramuses.
I do believe Joe Biden would've won if he ran.
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Post by Dracula on Nov 10, 2016 9:48:25 GMT -5
Kaine might not have been the perfect choice, but he did probably help win Virginia (which was closer than it should have been) and it's generally believed that running mates can hurt you more than they can help you (see: Sarah Palin). By being boring and staying out of the news Kaine was doing exactly what he was supposed to.
Bringing Warren or Sanders onto the ticket would have just given her the drawbacks of both candidates on top of her existing weaknesses.
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