SnoBorderZero
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Post by SnoBorderZero on Jul 30, 2020 17:42:29 GMT -5
That's all well and good, but it's operating under the assumption that Disney remaking these classics is important. Is it? Sure, they're box office successes, but that doesn't make them important. Rewriting classic films to be more modern is also a pretty easy thing to do, especially given Disney's checkered past when it comes to some of its representations stemming from Walt's racism.
And we can't even say that their importance led to a revival of Disney, because the acquisitions of Marvel and Lucasfilm are just as big if not bigger.
I see the argument, and again I'm not convinced myself that the other options I threw out there are important either, but it's just as big a reach to say that Alice in Wonderland is an important movie because it ushered in a reimagining of beloved animated works. Also, a consistent criticism of films like Beauty and the Beast and Lion King are that they're just carbon copies of the originals, so where's the reassessments happening there? There isn't; these are blatant cash grabs and little more. I don't blame Disney at all, if I was them I'd do the same as it's immensely easy and has built in audiences ready to go. Even mediocre-received films like Aladdin and Lion King last year did MASSIVE money. But I'm not labeling these movies as important.
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PG Cooper
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Post by PG Cooper on Jul 30, 2020 17:47:06 GMT -5
That's all well and good, but it's operating under the assumption that Disney remaking these classics is important. Is it? Sure, they're box office successes, but that doesn't make them important. Given how dominant they've become in film culture they might be. Beauty and the Beast's reassessment is to make the movie more woke. Belle is more feminist and the town more misogynistic and the romance is definitely not stockholm syndrome. Don't get me wrong, it's all shit, but it does have these half-hearted efforts at addressing the problematic elements of the original animated movie. All of the remakes do. That started with Alice in Wonderland. |
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Neverending
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Post by Neverending on Jul 30, 2020 17:50:00 GMT -5
That's all well and good, but it's operating under the assumption that Disney remaking these classics is important. Is it? Sure, they're box office successes, but that doesn't make them important. Rewriting classic films to be more modern is also a pretty easy thing to do, especially given Disney's checkered past when it comes to some of its representations stemming from Walt's racism. And we can't even say that their importance led to a revival of Disney, because the acquisitions of Marvel and Lucasfilm are just as big if not bigger. I see the argument, and again I'm not convinced myself that the other options I threw out there are important either, but it's just as big a reach to say that Alice in Wonderland is an important movie because it ushered in a reimagining of beloved animated works. Also, a consistent criticism of films like Beauty and the Beast and Lion King are that they're just carbon copies of the originals, so where's the reassessments happening there? There isn't; these are blatant cash grabs and little more. I don't blame Disney at all, if I was them I'd do the same as it's immensely easy and has built in audiences ready to go. Even mediocre-received films like Aladdin and Lion King last year did MASSIVE money. But I'm not labeling these movies as important. You might be putting too much emphasis on the word “important.” We’re just saying it’s a significant part of Hollywood history. Which it is. And as someone that works in the industry you’re well aware of that. You think Doomsday wants to work on Lion King or something with more substance? He has no choice. You go where the work is. |
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SnoBorderZero
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Post by SnoBorderZero on Jul 30, 2020 18:02:34 GMT -5
Still not buying it, none of this makes Alice in Wonderland an important film.
But 2010 also doesn't have a lot to offer in the way of importance so it might actually belong.
Fuck.
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Dracula
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Post by Dracula on Jul 30, 2020 18:40:45 GMT -5
Alice in Wonderland didn't just remake an old Disney cartoon, it set the precedent that these remakes were gonna address "problematic" elements of their source material and modernize them. So the conflict of the film isn't just a young girl dropped into a surreal nightmare world, but the repressive and limited gendered roles of 19th century England. That leads to Cinderella adding more scenes between her and the Prince to make the romance more legit, Jungle Book making Shere Khan kind of right in being afraid of Mowgli, Beauty and the Beast making Belle "more feminist", Dumbo being a meta-textual critique of Walt Disney himself, Aladdin making Jasmine wanna be the Sultan and not just a Princess, and Lion King embracing the segregation narrative more overtly. Also like all these movies, the efforts to "modernize" the story are actually way more problematic. In the case of Alice in Wonderland, you have "Victorian England is bad because it forces women into presubscribed roles" but all Alice does in Wonderland is what people tell her to do. All the subsequent live-action remakes have their wokeness backfire in similar ways. It's a legacy of shit, but a legacy nonetheless. I mean, of course they tried to make the movies more "woke" while they were remaking them, why the hell wouldn't they? If anything they should have changed more. Trying to improve your remakes is not an innovation. That's all well and good, but it's operating under the assumption that Disney remaking these classics is important. Is it? Sure, they're box office successes, but that doesn't make them important. Given how dominant they've become in film culture they might be. I mean, how dominant are they really? They're certainly economically dominant, but in the grand scheme of things they're just a couple movies a year and by definition they can't really influence movies made by any other studios much less any movies that are, like, for adults. |
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1godzillafan
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Post by 1godzillafan on Jul 30, 2020 18:47:00 GMT -5
I usually watch the remakes when they come out, then forget about them completely.
Unless it's garish and putrid, like Beauty & the Beast.
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Neverending
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Post by Neverending on Jul 30, 2020 18:50:23 GMT -5
They're certainly economically dominant, but in the grand scheme of things they're just a couple movies a year and by definition they can't really influence movies made by any other studios much less any movies that are, like, for adults. Covid put theatres on life support and got people accustomed to VOD. Studios are gonna be even more invested in big event films. These Disney remakes are gonna be even more prominent than before — while your A24 movies like First Cow are gonna go straight to VOD or to streaming. You don’t see Disney rushing to dump Mulan on Disney+. That’s very telling. |
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donny
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Post by donny on Jul 31, 2020 9:06:33 GMT -5
Inception
Social Network
Black Swan
Ditch Cinderella
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Deexan
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Post by Deexan on Aug 2, 2020 20:45:09 GMT -5
Fuck Alice in Wonderland.
What about How to Train your Dragon?
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Neverending
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Post by Neverending on Aug 2, 2020 20:55:47 GMT -5
Fuck Alice in Wonderland. What about How to Train your Dragon? Shrek didn’t make the list. No reason to include Dragon. And PG Cooper is a Zoomer. He knows the cultural relevance more than anyone here — and he still chose to look away. |
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Dracula
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Post by Dracula on Aug 2, 2020 21:01:02 GMT -5
Fuck Alice in Wonderland. What about How to Train your Dragon? Shrek didn’t make the list. No reason to include Dragon. And PG Cooper is a Zoomer. He knows the cultural relevance more than anyone here — and he still chose to look away. Speaking of... I think Shrek actually was supposed to make it that year but Ian miscounted the votes. I didn't say anything at the time because I liked the result. |
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Neverending
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Post by Neverending on Aug 2, 2020 21:03:25 GMT -5
Shrek didn’t make the list. No reason to include Dragon. And PG Cooper is a Zoomer. He knows the cultural relevance more than anyone here — and he still chose to look away. Speaking of... I think Shrek actually was supposed to make it that year but Ian miscounted the votes. I didn't say anything at the time because I liked the result.  |
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Deexan
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Post by Deexan on Aug 2, 2020 21:09:07 GMT -5
Shrek didn’t make the list. No reason to include Dragon. And PG Cooper is a Zoomer. He knows the cultural relevance more than anyone here — and he still chose to look away. Speaking of... I think Shrek actually was supposed to make it that year but Ian miscounted the votes. I didn't say anything at the time because I liked the result. Classic Ian. |
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Neverending
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Post by Neverending on Aug 2, 2020 21:10:17 GMT -5
1. The Lord of the Rings: The Fellowship of the Ring: Excellent start to one of the best film trilogies of all time. 2. Harry Potter and the Philosopher's Stone: I don't think the first film holds up all that much, but it got the ball rolling for an extremely popular film franchise as well as ushering in the era of the young adult movie. 3. Shrek: Launched a massive franchise and put Dreamworks animation on the map. 4. The Royal Tenenbaums: It's basically the ultimate Wes Anderson movie. He's in total control of his style and mixes comedy and pathos perfectly. Anderson is one of the most important filmmakers of his era, and no film captures him better. 5. Memento: Though it may be stylistically removed from some of his later works, this is the film that introduced the world to the talents of Christopher Nolan. It may not have influenced too many subsequent films, but as the years go by the film is held in higher and higher esteem. At this point it's considered one of the strongest films of the decade. Honourable MentionsDonnie Darko: This definitely has a huge cult audience and I did strongly consider it, but the fact that all of Richard Kelly's subsequent films have been failures hurt its chances. Y Tu Mama Tambien: Great film and a huge triumph for Alfonso Cuaron, but it hasn't quite had the necessary impact to make it in the list. Ocean's Eleven: Fun movie and a great cast, but it's not quite there. Black Hawk Down: Ridley Scott's execution is excellent, but the film doesn't have the substance to really resonate. Gosford Park: The last relevant film from the great Robert Altman. I slandered PG Cooper and I apologize. Also, I think Ocean’s Eleven is a valid option. I was in the Donnie Darko camp, but I don’t think Zoomers give a fuck about that movie. The Ocean’s Eleven aesthetic is still very much prevalent in media today. |
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thebtskink
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Post by thebtskink on Aug 2, 2020 21:35:41 GMT -5
Was our criteria initial non-festival release anywhere, or US release?
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Neverending
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Post by Neverending on Aug 2, 2020 21:47:17 GMT -5
Was our criteria initial non-festival release anywhere, or US release? I think theatrical release. There was debate on whether Memento was 2000 or 2001 and IanTheCool went with 2001 cause that’s when the movie was commercially released. |
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Dracula
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Post by Dracula on Aug 2, 2020 21:47:50 GMT -5
Was our criteria initial non-festival release anywhere, or US release? Generally U.S. release but we kind of went case-by-case. |
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thebtskink
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Post by thebtskink on Aug 2, 2020 21:52:13 GMT -5
In that case: Social Network - film critics seem to largely have this as one of the best movies of the decade. Who am I to judge them? Inception - Best action film Fury Road. Well loved. Black Swan - Artistic achievement, great mindfuck of a movie Tron: Legacy - The PG Cooper generation is in love with this movie and Scott Pilgrim, except this movie is actually good. Banging soundtrack, too. The Human Centipede (First Sequence) - This is where i'm guaging the room. Either I get Zilla and Neverending behind me on this one or Jackass 3D. Toy Story can GTFO. |
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Neverending
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Post by Neverending on Aug 2, 2020 22:05:30 GMT -5
I’m not sure about Human Centipede. Its existence is a result of 2000’s Asian horror films and 2000’s American torture porn films. If anything, Human Centipede is among the last of those type of movies. They’re not as prevalent as they used to be. The genre has shifted to A24 type movies which is why I think Shutter Island or Black Swan would make more sense.
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PG Cooper
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Post by PG Cooper on Aug 2, 2020 23:21:05 GMT -5
Shrek probably should be on the list. How fo Train...maybe. I know a lot of people who really love it, but idk how important it is. It's the best film from the third place studio of Western animation in the 2010s.
I'm still only sold on Social Network, Inception, and Black Swan for 2010. Much as I loathe Alice in Wonderland idk if we can find too many movies that are more important. Drac can probably sell me in Dogtooth though.
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Neverending
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Post by Neverending on Aug 2, 2020 23:39:19 GMT -5
Shrek probably should be on the list. How fo Train...maybe. I know a lot of people who really love it, but idk how important it is. It's the best film from the third place studio of Western animation in the 2010s. I'm still only sold on Social Network, Inception, and Black Swan for 2010. Much as I loathe Alice in Wonderland idk if we can find too many movies that are more important. Drac can probably sell me in Dogtooth though. Alice in Wonderland Black Swan Easy A Inception Social Network |
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SnoBorderZero
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Post by SnoBorderZero on Aug 3, 2020 17:05:17 GMT -5
Toy Story 3 should be on there for sure.
The Social Network
Inception
Toy Story 3
Black Swan
It's the fifth spot that's up for debate.
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1godzillafan
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Post by 1godzillafan on Aug 3, 2020 17:25:26 GMT -5
It's the fifth spot that's up for debate. Tbis means one thing: we compromise on Birdemic: Shock and Terror. |
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IanTheCool
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Post by IanTheCool on Aug 6, 2020 15:17:39 GMT -5
Okay so we are replacing The Fighter with Black Swan.
And we are replacing Alice with.... ?
What's the argument for Dogtooth?
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Dracula
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Post by Dracula on Aug 6, 2020 15:19:00 GMT -5
What's the argument for Dogtooth? That it's awesome. |
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