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Post by Neverending on Sept 20, 2016 23:37:03 GMT -5
In this case, I think it does matter. The Fox and the Hound wasn't a great experience for all these rookies. At the training program, their teachers were the animators who worked with Walt Disney on all the classic films. Then, unexpectedly, they get key jobs on the latest movie and hate every second of it. The dark age of Disney is really a term they came up with since, as you noted, Disney was still releasing hits at the time. It's just that the quality of the work declined and they wanted to rectify it. Tim Burton, somehow, talked Disney into letting him make Vincent, Frankenweenie and Hansel & Gretel. They hated it. And when he pitched The Nightmare Before Christmas, they just fired him. John Lasseter tried to make The Brave Little Toaster the first CGI animated film and Disney fired him after seeing the test footage. They hated the project so much they gave the rights away. And the Disney Renaissance happened because when Jeffrey Katzenberg took over, he hated The Black Cauldron so much he put the new kids in charge. The Great Mouse Detective and Oliver & Company were live-and-learn experiences and then The Little Mermaid was made. By the time The Little Mermaid was released, Tim Burton had made Batman, John Lasseter was an Academy Award winning director for Pixar and Brad Bird was working on The Simpsons. All this happened cause everyone hated working on The Fox and the Hound. Yeah, it certainly matters as far as understanding Disney and Hollywood history goes. What I meant when I called it the last hurrah for the old guard was that it was the last time they got their way and it worked out well for them. The Rescuers is their Abbey Road. Fox and Hound is their Let It Be.
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EdReedFan20
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Post by EdReedFan20 on Sept 22, 2016 13:06:56 GMT -5
If you wanna get technical about it, The Rescuers is the last Disney movie by the "old guard." The Fox and the Hound was largely animated by Brad Bird, Tim Burton, John Lasseter and the Disney Renaissance team. Burton and Lasseter, believe it or not, were fired by Disney only a few years later. Brad Bird, I think, just quit. Burton hired him to direct Family Dog for Steven Spielberg's Amazing Stories and he followed that with The Simpsons. The Disney Renaissance team were just lucky enough to stick around till Jeffrey Katzenberg took over. That whole thing is documented in The Giant's Dream: The Making of the Iron Giant, which is included in the new Blu-Ray release of The Iron Giant.
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Dracula
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Post by Dracula on Sept 22, 2016 21:58:52 GMT -5
The Black Cauldron (1985)
Out of all the Disney movies I planned to watch this year, The Black Cauldron is definitely one of the ones I’ve been most curious to see. This is in partly because it was an attempt to make a darker Disney movie that skewed older but also because, more than most of these movies, it is a total unknown quantity. The movie had very little impact on pop culture and I’d hardly even seen a clip of it much less the whole movie. If the movie is remembered for anything it’s for its incredible critical and commercial failure and, rightly or wrongly, is seen as the moment where the studio hit rock bottom. It’s a shame because the people behind the movie clearly had high hopes for the project as they dumped a lot of money into it. This was made for $44 million dollars, which is almost four times the cost of The Fox and the Hound, which was itself the most expensive animated movie ever made (without inflation adjustment). That would have been money well spent if this had indeed gotten a wider audience interested in what they were doing and given themselves a cooler image, but things didn’t really work out for them. While I’m not going to go so far as to suggest that Disney can just spend their way into making a good movie, the extra resources certainly don’t hurt. This is easily the best looking Disney movie since Sleeping Beauty and it isn’t even close. You can tell that that 1959 film was their model as this was the first time they experimented with wide screen, 70mm, and special animation effects since that movie’s relative box office failure and it makes it so that if nothing else The Black Cauldron is a very pleasant movie to look at. The movie’s darker than usual tone is also a pretty interesting move. This was Disney’s first PG rated movie, and this is before that rating had been completely devalued. The film’s villain, while kind of generic and lacking in personality, has real menace and there’s a lot more of a sense of threat to the whole thing. It’s a pretty fascinating direction to go in from a studio that, in its last movie, was too pussy to kill off a damn dog. The problem is that while the movie seems really unique amongst Disney’s cannon it feels pretty generic by the standards of 80s fantasy movies in general. The film’s protagonist is really boring. He’s a 14 year old kid who… has brown hair and, uh, seems fairly noble I guess. There’s also a princess here who’s more feisty than usual but otherwise doesn’t have much of an effect on the story. There’s also a furry little comic relief thing that is absurdly annoying and the film has a really weird MacGuffin in the form of some kind of magical pig. The story is also just a really basic Lord of the Rings ripoff and beyond that there really isn’t that much to say. The film starts off well enough but really loses steam fast in its second act. It picks up a little toward the end but by then it’s too little too late. It’s a frustrating movie because it feels like the ingredients are there for something cool and they just blow it at every turn and the result is a movie that never lives up to its potential. The general public rejected the movie so emphatically that the goddamn Care Bears movie ended up outgrossing it, many people at Disney were fired, and the decision was made to leave “edgy” animated movies to Ralph Bakshi going forward. **1/2 out of Five
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Post by Neverending on Sept 23, 2016 1:26:19 GMT -5
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EdReedFan20
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Post by EdReedFan20 on Sept 23, 2016 23:54:42 GMT -5
Like I said a couple weeks back, Disney has the rights to adapt the entire book series into a live action franchise. Though, with the way they handled Narnia, I don't know if they'll see it to completion.
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Post by Dracula on Sept 26, 2016 6:14:47 GMT -5
The Great Mouse Detective (1986)
Heads rolled over The Black Cauldron and it coincided with a lot of changes to the greater Disney Corporation and the animated film division. Michael Eisner had been brought it from Paramount to be Disney’s CEO and he appointed future Dreamworks mogul Jeffrey Katzenberg to run the motion picture division and by all accounts he hated what he saw of The Black Cauldron and personally cut 12 minutes out of it. Clearly he felt the whole studio needed a big shakeup and different creatives started to take charge of their feature animations. The Great Mouse Detective was the first post-Katzenberg production by the studio and he apparently made demands to it on a script level while also cutting the budget to avoid another overpriced bomb. Whatever he did it seemed to work because The Great Mouse Detective was a very pleasant surprise for me and easily the studio’s best movie since The Jungle Book even if that’s not saying much. Looking back, it’s clear that this movie was something of a trial run for some of the principals that would have been instrumental in the famous Disney Renaissance. Most notably, two of the film’s four directors were a couple of guys named John Musker and Ron Clements who would together direct such movies as The Little Mermaid, Aladdin, The Princess and the Frog, and they’re even directing Moana later this year. The thing is, they were kind of stuck with a stupid concept to work with the first time around. Rather than working on an epic fairy tale they were stuck making a movie that answered the question no one was asking: what if Sherlock Holmes was a mouse? Honestly I’m not sure why this studio is so obsessed with mice, animals which most people hate these rodents but Disney saw it fit to make one its logo and fund two major motion pictures about them within a ten year period and this one really does not do a whole lot with the whole animal angle. Come to think about it, they don’t do a lot with the Sherlock Holmes angle either. We know from moment one that Professor Rattigan is the villain, so this isn’t really a whodunit so much as it’s about figuring out where the villain is and what his evil scheme is. That’s less a Sherlock Holmes formula and more the format of a James Bond movie complete with a scene where the villain leaves the hero tied up to an elaborate machine he can escape from. The movie is also pretty sharp visually. It lacks the show-offy scope of The Black Cauldron but it’s clearly cleaner and more confidently staged than most of the other movies they made in the previous twenty years. They do a good job of animating the London fog and they also use some computer animation and use it pretty well during the film’s rather exciting finale in the gears of Big Ben. In general, the execution here is pretty strong; it’s just that this whole premise is… silly and not very Disney-like. The public sort of seemed to agree because the reception of the movie was strong but nothing great. The movie made about $25 million on a $14 million budget, which would have been considered to be a moderate success except that for the second movie in a row Disney found themselves coming in second to a rival animation studio, in this case Don Bluth’s most successful movie An American Tail (again, what the hell is it with animators and mice), which made $47 million dollars. Disney is not a studio that was used to coming in second on its own turf so I think this thing was ultimately seen as a commercial failure, but clearly they felt like they were going in the right creative direction and they were probably right. ***1/2 out of five
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Post by Dracula on Sept 29, 2016 22:34:32 GMT -5
Oliver & Company (1988)
By 1988 it was pretty clear to everyone that Disney was in a bad place and that they may or may not be able to dig their way out and they were becoming very open to experimentation. Oliver & Company was in many ways an experiment to see if the thing that had ailed Disney the whole time had simply been that they were behind the times and needed to start getting hip with the MTV generation and the results were… kind of hilarious in retrospect. This is actually one of the few Disney movies to be placed in a contemporary setting and one of even fewer Disney movies to fully embrace its modernity, and because of that it has become dated a lot faster than most of their output because this movie is what you’d call “totally 80s.” You can tell this right from the first moments of the movies where we immediately start seeing 80s New York as the setting and start hearing Huey Lewis and the News on the soundtrack. In fact there’s a lot of pop music in the soundtrack here and it feels less like the Broadway-ish fare that Disney usually traffics in and more like fully produced MTV ready songs by artists like of Billy Joel (who also voices a major character during a very brief moment in time where he was considered cool and youthful) and while these songs are catchy enough for what they are they feel out of place and it’s more jarring than usual when characters suddenly break out into this kind of song than normal in part because they sound like they particularly sound like studio recordings rather than an approximation of someone singing on the street. As a story the best way I can describe this movie is… rushed. The movie is an attempt to re-tell Charles Dickens’ “Oliver Twist” as the story of a stray kitten in New York, which I’m willing to bet seemed like a good idea at one point and they do find some semi-clever ways to adapt the story, but in the long run I’m not so sure that turning a 600 page novel set over a long period of time into a 74 minute movie set over three days was such a smart move. “Oliver Twist” is a story that’s primarily about how its young protagonist moves between class stratas and the way he falls in and out of certain social circles be it the chaotic world of Fagin’s gang or the comforting world of the Brownlows, but in this version there’s very little time for him to really integrate with any of these worlds and he seems to build these lifelong loyalties after hanging out with people for all of a single day. But let’s not ignore the obvious; even the most rock-solid of storytelling here would have almost certainly been lost amid this movie’s overwhelming “‘tude.” Hell, they might as well have renamed Dodger to Poochie, because that Simpsons episode more than exemplifies what seemed to be going on with this movie and its general datedness is probably a big part of why it was never really embraced by future generations of kids. From an execution perspective the movie is… mostly fine. Disney had really started embracing celebrity voice actors at this point, a practice that they would sort of cool on shortly afterwards. The animation is pretty decent for the most part, you can tell their craft has kept improving and they do an admirable job of filling the New York streets with activity although their use of computer animation is a little less impactful and a bit more distracting than it was in the last movie. Critics were not fond of the movie but it did make decent money although once again the studio’s success was kind of overshadowed by Don Bluth. This movie opened the very same weekend as Bluth’s The Land Before Time and lost the weekend $7.5 million to $4 million. Oliver & Company surpass Bluth’s film and gross $53 million to LBT’s $46 million, which is pretty much a draw. Disney would have the last laugh though as this would be the last time that Bluth would be viewed as any sort of threat. The film’s bigger legacy though is probably one of failure as I kind of suspect that Disney was a little embarrassed by their sellout attempts here as evidenced by the fact that they ran as fast as possible in the other direction shortly thereafter. ** out of FiveCollecting Some ThoughtsSo, I’ve waded through the Disney Dark Age and obviously the big question is “was it as bad as its reputation suggests?” Objectively, I’m inclined to say “not really but I understand why people think so.” Simply looking at my star ratings I definitely gave higher scores to the movies during this installment of the series than I did to most of the movies in my last series on the “Reitherman Years” and I think that era has been given something of an unfair pass in part because The Jungle Book came out in the middle of it and that movie is seen as a sort of classic. What I think has directed so much ire towards this era, aside from sour grapes over what was going on behind the scenes, is that this was the first time that Disney didn’t really seem like Disney. Even when they had put out bad movies in the past there had still been little doubt that they were the undisputed kings of mainstream animation and that wasn’t necessarily true of their 70s and 80s output. They had some real competition now and you could sort of see them flailing. On top of that they had abandoned a lot of what had worked for them in the past. Instead of alternating between fairy tale movies and talking animal movies they had doubled and tripled down on the talking animal movies in this era and the one fairy tale like movie they did attempt was a far cry from their earlier formula that people were so nostalgic for. Despite Disney’s problems during this era you can definitely see them rebuilding towards something better as they went. The Rescuers and The Fox and the Hound were basically extensions of the Reitherman era and had all the problems associated with it and while The Black Cauldron had plenty of problems itself I feel like it marked a point where the animators were learning and they used tricks from it to make The Great Mouse Detective and Oliver & Company work better than they otherwise would have. Those last two movies are the real transitional efforts. You can see the techniques that would finally bring The Disney Renaissance to life but they were being used towards story ideas that weren’t worthy of them. As everyone knows, Disney was about to break out of its doldrums in a big way and that will be the subject of my next installment, but that is going to have to wait because I’m going to be putting Disneyology on hiatus for a few months and resuming it after Award season ends. Fortunately I’ll be able to hit the ground running with the movies that most exemplified what Disney was all about to my generation. Ranking So Far 1. Fantasia 2. Lady and the Tramp 3. Bambi 4. The Jungle Book 5. Sleeping Beauty 6. Pinocchio 7. The Great Mouse Detective 8. Cinderella 9. Alice in Wonderland 10. Snow White and the Seven Dwarfs 11. The Fox and the Hound 12. Robin Hood 13. The Black Cauldron 14. Dumbo 15. One Hundred and One Dalmatians 16. The Rescuers 17. Oliver and Company 18. The Aristocats 19. Peter Pan 20. The Sword in the Stone
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Neverending
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Post by Neverending on Sept 30, 2016 0:00:02 GMT -5
Although Disney's animation department was still in recovery mode, Disney in general was kicking ass by 1988. Touchstone Pictures was launched and putting out box office hits and Academy Award winning films. On television, DuckTales was on the air and setting up the Disney Afternoon block. The Disney Channel had been launched. But the one thing you completely ignored, and most relevant to your review, is Roger Rabbit.
The moment that Disney's animators found out that they wouldn't be working on Roger Rabbit is the moment the Disney Renaissance was born.
Roger Rabbit was animated in England by Richard Williams and his team and it infuriated the Disney animators in Burbank. They said, "fuck Roger Rabbit, fuck Steven Spielberg and fuck Jeffrey Katzenberg" and The Little Mermaid was born.
Roger Rabbit, by the way, was the biggest hit of the summer. That's where Disney was in 1988. That summer they also released Cocktails with Tom Cruise. That was a hit too - and that Beach Boys song was an even bigger hit. And you know what was their big holiday hit? Beaches! One of the iconic chick flicks. And it featured the #1 hit single, Wind Beneath My Wings, which won Song of the Year at the Grammys. That was Disney in 1988.
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Dracula
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Post by Dracula on Sept 30, 2016 5:38:20 GMT -5
I will admit that when I say "Disney" in my reviews I am frequently using it as shorthand for "Disney Animation Studios" unless otherwise noted.
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Post by Neverending on Sept 30, 2016 6:55:05 GMT -5
I will admit that when I say "Disney" in my reviews I am frequently using it as shorthand for "Disney Animation Studios" unless otherwise noted. I'm just saying that Don Bluth wasn't really their biggest threat at the time. Michael Eisner and Jeffrey Katzenberg turned the whole company against them. One of the first things they did was launch the television animation division, which was/is separate from the animation studio, and it had more success. Gummi Bears, their first series, was a big network hit and DuckTales and Chip n Dale were huge on syndication. Then they put the spotlight on Touchstone. This was the first time the Disney brand wasn't attached to the company's live-action movies. That put more pressure on the animation studio to succeed - especially after Roger Rabbit.
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Deexan
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Post by Deexan on Sept 30, 2016 15:36:25 GMT -5
Lolling at "'tude".
Also, Sword In The Stone at 20 moves me to tears.
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PhantomKnight
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Post by PhantomKnight on Oct 1, 2016 12:11:16 GMT -5
Oh man, The Great Mouse Detective is a favorite of mine. I first saw it in the 90's and liked it so much that I wanted to own it, but the VHS was impossible to find until Disney FINALLY rereleased it in 1999, I think.
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Post by Neverending on Oct 1, 2016 13:12:03 GMT -5
Oh man, The Great Mouse Detective is a favorite of mine. I first saw it in the 90's and liked it so much that I wanted to own it, but the VHS was impossible to find until Disney FINALLY rereleased it in 1999, I think. My elementary school had a copy of it. They showed it a few times. I also remember watching it on television.
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PhantomKnight
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Post by PhantomKnight on Oct 1, 2016 13:15:45 GMT -5
I remember always having to rent it or borrow a copy from somebody who already owned it.
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Post by Neverending on Oct 1, 2016 13:20:52 GMT -5
I remember always having to rent it or borrow a copy from somebody who already owned it. I used to rent The Aristocats - could never find a copy of that fucking movie. I think Disney did eventually release it as part of their going-to-the-vault-soon collection, but I didn't give a shit by that point.
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Post by PhantomKnight on Oct 1, 2016 13:25:28 GMT -5
I was always grateful for Disney's Masterpiece Collection series. That's how I got my hands on their older titles like The Aristocats, The Jungle Book, The Black Cauldron, Pete's Dragon, etc.
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Post by Dracula on Oct 1, 2016 13:28:49 GMT -5
Don't get me started on the "Disney vault," it's made this whole retrospective a lot more difficult than it needed to be.
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Post by Neverending on Oct 1, 2016 13:36:59 GMT -5
I was always grateful for Disney's Masterpiece Collection series. I was around for the original VHS releases. They were just called Walt Disney Classics. I might still have them - unless my sister stole them. I have/had: Pinocchio, Cinderella and 101 Dalmatians. I think I did get Snow White from the Masterpiece Collection, but there might have been an earlier release. I don't remember if I had The Little Mermaid or not, but I definitely have Beauty and the Beast, Aladdin 1 through 3 and The Lion King. I also have The Nightmare Before Christmas, but that's technically a Touchstone movie - or was at the time.
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Post by PG Cooper on Oct 1, 2016 13:41:29 GMT -5
Don't get me started on the "Disney vault," it's made this whole retrospective a lot more difficult than it needed to be. I've been wanting to plow through the Disney catalogue for a while now but the vault bullshit has repeatedly stopped me since I wanna be able to do the movies in order rather than a random jumble.
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Post by PhantomKnight on Oct 1, 2016 13:42:35 GMT -5
My older sister had -- and maybe still has -- movies like Aladdin, Beauty and the Beast, The Little Mermaid in their original VHS releases and that's how I saw those.
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Dracula
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Post by Dracula on Oct 1, 2016 13:57:03 GMT -5
Don't get me started on the "Disney vault," it's made this whole retrospective a lot more difficult than it needed to be. I've been wanting to plow through the Disney catalogue for a while now but the vault bullshit has repeatedly stopped me since I wanna be able to do the movies in order rather than a random jumble. I would have started this whole series a year ago but Netflix didn't have Snow White at the time and that kind of stopped things right away. Since that got let out of the vault earlier this year I started things out and Netflix has had most of the movies but I've had to settle for watching a lot of them on DVD instead of Blu-Ray and I do think that has maybe disadvantaged a couple of the movies in my assessment. The only one they straight-up didn't have was The Fox and the Hound and I had to pay to rent a stream of that one through Amazon.
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Post by Neverending on Oct 1, 2016 14:29:10 GMT -5
I've been wanting to plow through the Disney catalogue for a while now but the vault bullshit has repeatedly stopped me since I wanna be able to do the movies in order rather than a random jumble. I started things out and Netflix has had most of the movies but I've had to settle for watching a lot of them on DVD instead of Blu-Ray and I do think that has maybe disadvantaged a couple of the movies in my assessment. The only one they straight-up didn't have was The Fox and the Hound and I had to pay to rent a stream of that one through Amazon. Surprised you guys didn't try out the library. They have a lot of the Disney movies.
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Post by Dracula on Oct 1, 2016 14:36:09 GMT -5
I've been wanting to plow through the Disney catalogue for a while now but the vault bullshit has repeatedly stopped me since I wanna be able to do the movies in order rather than a random jumble. I started things out and Netflix has had most of the movies but I've had to settle for watching a lot of them on DVD instead of Blu-Ray and I do think that has maybe disadvantaged a couple of the movies in my assessment. The only one they straight-up didn't have was The Fox and the Hound and I had to pay to rent a stream of that one through Amazon. Surprised you guys didn't try out the library. They have a lot of the Disney movies. And they have huge waiting lists for all of them.
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EdReedFan20
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Post by EdReedFan20 on Oct 4, 2016 15:56:06 GMT -5
You started this just in time for the live-action versions to be made. Now Mulan is getting a live-action remake. So far, the live-action adaptations (out or coming out) are Maleficent (not sure this one counts), Cinderella, The Jungle Book, Beauty in the Beast, The Lion King, Dumbo, and Mulan. It's rumored that Aladdin and The Little Mermaid will also eventually get the treatment. Also, as I said earlier in this thread, Disney is giving The Black Cauldron a live-action adaptation, but I doubt that will be thought of as a remake like the other movies. With seemingly all the 90's Disney movies getting the live-action treatment, I wonder if Hunchback of Notre Dame (I can't wait to see your opinion on that movie) and Hercules will get them, too. Not sure about Tarzan, though. There seems to be too many live action Tarzan movies.
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Post by Dracula on Oct 4, 2016 16:12:02 GMT -5
You started this just in time for the live-action versions to be made. Now Mulan is getting a live-action remake. So far, the live-action adaptations (out or coming out) are Maleficent (not sure this one counts), Cinderella, The Jungle Book, Beauty in the Beast, The Lion King, Dumbo, and Mulan. It's rumored that Aladdin and The Little Mermaid will also eventually get the treatment. Also, as I said earlier in this thread, Disney is giving The Black Cauldron a live-action adaptation, but I doubt that will be thought of as a remake like the other movies. With seemingly all the 90's Disney movies getting the live-action treatment, I wonder if Hunchback of Notre Dame (I can't wait to see your opinion on that movie) and Hercules will get them, too. Not sure about Tarzan, though. There seems to be too many live action Tarzan movies. That was definately one of the things that made me pull the trigger on starting this. I could ignore Cinderella and Maleficent easily enough but when you have stuff like The Jungle Book turning out to be pretty legit movies I knew I was going to have to pay more attention and it would be hard to watch some of them without knowing about the originals and comparing.
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