Neverending
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Post by Neverending on Dec 5, 2015 22:49:09 GMT -5
I finally popped in the Rocky blu-ray collection I bought on Black Friday. I haven't seen these movies in a few years. Rocky (1976)IanTheCool and PG Cooper already know my thoughts on this movie since I've discussed it at great length with them. And frankyt and SnoBorderZero know I have a Philadelphia background, so I'm incredibly biased when it comes to Rocky. That all being said, this movie is incredibly depressing. I think this is the first time I saw Rocky with adult eyes. It's still an inspiring movie released on the bicentennial of America - hence that Academy Award for Best Picture, but everything is surrounded by darkness. The character of Rocky is a total loser surrounded by even bigger losers. His best friend, Paulie, is an asshole. His trainer, Mickey, is an opportunist who only wants Rocky as a meal ticket. And his relationship with Adrian is a bit predatory. Dracula said that the sequels ruined Rocky, but in regards to Adrian, it's the opposite. I'm glad Adrian became a stronger character as the series went on and her relationship with Rocky became... not creepy. Now, don't take all this stuff the wrong way. I think it's what makes the movie standout. American cinema in the 1970's became popular for its realism and Rocky is almost too realistic. Most working class people have to settle. A perfect example is the friendly mobster who hires Rocky to collect money. When I was a kid it didn't even occur to me that this guy was a criminal. I just saw the nice guy who treated Rocky with respect and gave him money to pay for his boxing training. And can you blame me? That's how the movie treats him because, from Rocky's point-of-view, he ain't a bad guy. I think Rocky is the closest thing white people have to a ghetto movie. I think that's why it has endured for almost 40 years. I mean, yeah, there's 8 Mile with Eminem, but a story of a boxer is more exciting than one of a rapper. Rocky II (1979)Like thebtskink I was surprised to see the Internet praise Rocky II during the last couple of weeks. When I was growing up, people loved Rocky 1, 3, and 4 and thought Rocky II was okay. Rocky V was almost never acknowledged. That being said, the training montage and boxing match are BY FAR the best in the series. I thought that as a kid and I think that now. I'll take the last 30 minutes of Rocky II over anything in Raging Bull. Anyway... having re-watched Rocky II with fresh 2015 eyes, I get the newfound praise. Rocky wastes all his money and ends up working in a meat factory while his pregnant wife risks her health in a pet store. Both characters are just 30 years old in this movie and the dangers of the boxing ring is all they have to get ahead. That hits close to home for young people today because the economic crash of 2008 fucked up an entire generation. There's A LOT of 30 year olds working in meat factories and pet stores right now. That being said, while noble in effort, Rocky II is definitely an inferior sequel. People forget that the original Rocky was made for under a million dollars and feels very independent. Rocky II, by comparison, is a high-profile Hollywood movie that removed the - grit - of the original. It just... doesn't feel right. Except for those last 30 minutes. That was awesome. Up next: the 1980's and Rocky III and IV.
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Dracula
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Rocky
Dec 5, 2015 23:01:11 GMT -5
Post by Dracula on Dec 5, 2015 23:01:11 GMT -5
I think it's what makes the movie standout. American cinema in the 1970's became popular for its realism and Rocky is almost too realistic. The first couple of drafts of the screenplay were actually even darker. It was originally supposed to be this R-rated New Hollywood movie where Rocky was in deeper in with the mafia, Mickey was a racist, and it was going to end with Rocky taking a dive in the fight and using the money to buy Adrian a pet store with the money.
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Dec 5, 2015 23:11:08 GMT -5
Post by Jibbs on Dec 5, 2015 23:11:08 GMT -5
Didn't really care for Rocky, but regardless, I wouldn't mind going through them all one day.
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Neverending
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Dec 5, 2015 23:45:22 GMT -5
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Post by Neverending on Dec 5, 2015 23:45:22 GMT -5
I think it's what makes the movie standout. American cinema in the 1970's became popular for its realism and Rocky is almost too realistic. The first couple of drafts of the screenplay were actually even darker. It was originally supposed to be this R-rated New Hollywood movie where Rocky was in deeper in with the mafia, Mickey was a racist, and it was going to end with Rocky taking a dive in the fight and using the money to buy Adrian a pet store with the money. Have you ever seen Paradise Alley, the wrestling movie that Stallone made after Rocky? That was the script that Stallone originally pitched to the producers, but they weren't too crazy about it. So he told them about Rocky and they liked that better. I don't know if Stallone made any changes to Paradise Alley, but it is literally a Rocky movie with wrestling. It makes me wonder if he took the best parts of Paradise Alley and gave it to Rocky and then tried to do the best he could with the scraps that were left over.
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PG Cooper
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Dec 5, 2015 23:50:54 GMT -5
Post by PG Cooper on Dec 5, 2015 23:50:54 GMT -5
I'll take the last 30 minutes of Rocky II over anything in Raging Bull. Crazy talk. The boxing matches in Raging Bull are some of the best scenes in cinema. Anyway, I went through the Rocky movies a few months ago. I'll post my letterboxd reviews. RockyIt's really easy to look at Rocky cynically. It's scenes are so iconic they've become their own clichés, it's a sentimental rag to riches story, it launched a franchise which gradually become ridiculous, and it won Best Picture over Martin Scorsese's more complex Taxi Driver (which is incidentally my favourite film of all-time). The thing is, once you remove all the baggage and actually watch the original film, you realize just how great it is. Yes, the story is sentimental, but it comes by this very honestly. The various apartments and streets all look dirty and gritty. You really get a sense this is a poor, slumish area of the city. Rocky himself is a really well-realized character, earnest and kind but also uneducated and something of a failure. He's such an honest and flawed character that it makes his story all the more endearing. The same goes for the shy Adrian who slowly comes into her own through her relationship with Rocky. That's another thing I love about Rocky; guys watch it expecting a movie with Sylvester Stallone punching people, and they get tricked into watching a tender love story. Stallone and Talia Shire both play these perfectly, and the rest of the cast is great as well. This is an honest, uplifting, and genuinely very entertaining movie. Stallone's script and John G. Avildsen's direction are very patient, allowing the story and characters to build so that the dramatic pay-offs really work, and they certainly do. Rocky takes his chance and makes the most of it. More importantly, he finds a person he loves and grows. An awesome, inspiring film. A+Rocky IIThe original Rocky was a massive hit, so naturally a sequel was put into production. The thing is, the first film is really a self-contained story with all of the arcs and plot-lines being solved by the end. A sequel doesn't have much places to go and that shows in Rocky II. Much of the film can be divided into episodic bits that don't really go anywhere. Rocky goes on a shopping spree, Rocky and Adrian get married, Rocky tries commercials but fails, Adrian gets sick, etc. Generally, these story lines feel a lot less inspired and more clichéd than what the first film delivered. This is in large part the script, but I think it also speaks to Sylvester Stallone's limits as a director. Ultimately the central problem here though is that this is a largely a retread of the first film. I realize sequels follow formulas, but it's so very transparent here. The whole climax is built around a rematch with Apollo Creed, the ending is essentially the same beat as the first and the editing is similar, the cinematography is the same, the iconography, hell certain scenes could be mistaken as outtakes from the first film. I actually found the most interesting aspect of the film to be Apollo Creed, shaken by the fact that the no-name thug he never took seriously pushed Creed to his limits. That's pretty interesting, but we don't see much of it in the film. Rocky II is not quite a terrible film. The characters are still strong and I especially love watching Burgess Meredith, who's just great in these movies. I also appreciate that this film is still taking the franchise seriously, even if I don't think it really works. D+
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Neverending
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Dec 6, 2015 0:00:04 GMT -5
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Post by Neverending on Dec 6, 2015 0:00:04 GMT -5
PG CooperFrom a pure emotional level, the boxing match in Rocky II is the best.
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IanTheCool
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Dec 6, 2015 1:10:17 GMT -5
Post by IanTheCool on Dec 6, 2015 1:10:17 GMT -5
Watching Rocky movies seems like a chore to me.
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Dec 6, 2015 15:40:23 GMT -5
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Post by Neverending on Dec 6, 2015 15:40:23 GMT -5
Rocky III (1982)Rocky III is arguably the first "80's movie". It starts with a montage and the hair metal song, Eye of the Tiger, blasting through the speakers. Then we see a drunk Paulie wander into an arcade and throw a liquor bottle into a Rocky game. Later on, we see Rocky fight Hulk Hogan in what must have been the inspiration for UFC a decade later. The villain of the story is played Mr. T and Rocky must be trained by Apollo Creed in order to defeat him. And this time, the training montage isn't in the streets of Philly. It's Rocky and Apollo's homoerotic moments in Los Angeles. How do you even critique Rocky III? It's not a movie. It's the birthplace of a generation's pop culture. In many ways, Rocky III is more important than the original Rocky. And it also pops a huge whole into the so-called 3rd movie curse. Next to Goldfinger and The Good, The Bad and The Ugly, Rocky III might be the most influential 3rd movie of a series. Rocky IV (1985)Rocky 1 through 3 have VERY tight continuity. Rocky IV - I'm not sure when or where it's supposed to take place. The script contradicts itself. Sometimes it seems to take place 4 years after Rocky III and other times it seems to take place right after. And wasn't Rocky's fight with Mr. T supposed to be the last? So... who has he been fighting this whole time? Does he still have the eye of the tiger or did he go back to playing it safe? Stallone left too many unanswered questions and that's a problem because Rocky IV feels very disconnected from the previous three. Even that montage with the flashbacks feels kind of off. It seems like Stallone put this movie together at the last minute and just padded the running time with as many montages as possible. It's a weird movie from a technical standpoint and I'd be interested to learn more about the behind-the-scenes stuff. That being said, the movie works in spite of its randomness. As I've said before, Rocky IV is the ultimate guy movie. Forget the whole Cold War stuff that today's teenagers and twentysomethings think are hilarious. I was around when the movie was new-ish. No one gave a fuck about the Cold War stuff - especially us kids who had no knowledge of politics. We just saw Rocky grow a beard, train in the wild and defeat this guy created by science. It's male fantasy to the extreme. New Rank for thebtskinkRocky Rocky III Rocky IV Rocky II Up next: those other Rocky movies.
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PG Cooper
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Dec 9, 2015 15:52:35 GMT -5
Post by PG Cooper on Dec 9, 2015 15:52:35 GMT -5
Rocky III
The first two Rocky films were low-key underdog stories about a common man trying to succeed. This is not the case with Rocky III. An opening montage shows Rocky defending his title against various challengers while building a fortune on advertising. This Rocky wears suits, is more well-spoken, and much more confident. It's not unreasonable that the lovable loser from the first film would grow into this character, but it feels odd to just jump into this with only a montage to chart the growths. We've spent two movies learning who this guy is, and within a few minutes he's totally different. Paulie also struck me as really inconsistent in this film and the character is starting to grate on me. He worked great in the first film, but in the sequels it's like the filmmakers are unsure what to do with him. I'm also not okay with Mickey being killed off. It would have worked had the film really built a lot of the drama around this, but it feels more like a way to get the character out of the way so he can be trained by Apollo.
All that said, there is some good stuff here. This is where the movies started taking themselves less seriously, so we get silly, but fun scenes like the boxing/wrestling charity match. There's also a really good scene where Adrian really gets into it with Rocky. I like seeing how she's grown. It's cool to see Apollo and Rocky team-up and Mr. T's Clubber Lang is also a very fun villain, though the final bout with him is a bit of a let-down. They build this dude up all movie, but Rocky takes him down in the climax with minimal difficulty.
Overall, I'm pretty mixed on this movie. It has some good elements, but it also doesn't quite sit right with me.
C+
Rocky IV
Rocky III may have pushed away from the seriousness of the early films, but it was this entry that fully descended into ridiculousness. I can see why that would be frustrating for many, but taken for what it is, this movie is really entertaining. The energy level is off the charts. We get musical numbers, lots of montages, intense training, some really great fights, and a fucking robot. Dolph Lundgren's Ivan Drago is a borderline super-villain and the Cold War backdrop gives this an extra level of cheesy fun. Rocky himself seems closer in character to what we're used to and the film handles the death of a friend to Rocky much better than Rocky III did.
There's definitely stuff I don't like here. It bothers me that after Apollo was given such development through the series that he return to his egotistical self. All that growth and it ultimately never went anywhere. There's also really no denying that this film is stupid as hell. But man did I have fun.
B
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SnoBorderZero
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Dec 9, 2015 15:56:17 GMT -5
Post by SnoBorderZero on Dec 9, 2015 15:56:17 GMT -5
Rocky IV is trash. Trash, trash, trash. Amusing trash, but still trash.
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PG Cooper
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Rocky
Dec 9, 2015 17:19:56 GMT -5
Post by PG Cooper on Dec 9, 2015 17:19:56 GMT -5
Rocky IV is trash. Trash, trash, trash. Amusing trash, but still trash.
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SnoBorderZero
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Dec 9, 2015 17:34:00 GMT -5
Post by SnoBorderZero on Dec 9, 2015 17:34:00 GMT -5
It's like they didn't have any actual gameplan for shooting the movie. It's literally a series of awful montages and that's it.
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Doomsday
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Post by Doomsday on Dec 9, 2015 17:49:56 GMT -5
Like I said before, my girlfriend who isn't a huge movie fan said 'there was nothing in that movie. The one guy dies, Rocky fights the Russian for no real reason and there are 10 lines of dialogue.' She's not wrong.
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PG Cooper
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Post by PG Cooper on Dec 9, 2015 18:01:33 GMT -5
It's literally a series of montages so good that I'm still hard hours after the movie. Fixed.
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SnoBorderZero
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Dec 9, 2015 18:08:32 GMT -5
Post by SnoBorderZero on Dec 9, 2015 18:08:32 GMT -5
Like I said before, my girlfriend who isn't a huge movie fan said 'there was nothing in that movie. The one guy dies, Rocky fights the Russian for no real reason and there are 10 lines of dialogue.' She's not wrong. She's a keeper. Rocky IV blows.
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Dracula
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Dec 9, 2015 18:19:41 GMT -5
Post by Dracula on Dec 9, 2015 18:19:41 GMT -5
Rocky IV isn't just stupid, it's a betrayal of what the series is supposed to be about. Look back at Rocky 1, Apollo Creed shows up draped in the American flag and wearing those silly shorts, but he ends up somewhat humiliated because it's Rocky's quite perseverance rather than Apollo's empty flag waving patriotism that's representative of real American values. Then along comes Rocky IV which is empty flag waving personified.
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Dec 9, 2015 19:40:58 GMT -5
Post by Doomsday on Dec 9, 2015 19:40:58 GMT -5
I don't hate Rocky IV despite my reservations, when I was growing up it was of course one my all time favorite movies. Like everyone though I grew up. I didn't know that there were so many people though who actually DID actively dislike it.
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Post by Doomsday on Dec 9, 2015 19:41:48 GMT -5
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Post by thebtskink on Dec 9, 2015 22:25:52 GMT -5
Rocky IV isn't just stupid, it's a betrayal of what the series is supposed to be about. Look back at Rocky 1, Apollo Creed shows up draped in the American flag and wearing those silly shorts, but he ends up somewhat humiliated because it's Rocky's quite perseverance rather than Apollo's empty flag waving patriotism that's representative of real American values. Then along comes Rocky IV which is empty flag waving personified. You're reading far too much into flags.
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PG Cooper
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Dec 9, 2015 23:13:06 GMT -5
Post by PG Cooper on Dec 9, 2015 23:13:06 GMT -5
Rocky IV isn't just stupid, it's a betrayal of what the series is supposed to be about. Look back at Rocky 1, Apollo Creed shows up draped in the American flag and wearing those silly shorts, but he ends up somewhat humiliated because it's Rocky's quite perseverance rather than Apollo's empty flag waving patriotism that's representative of real American values. Then along comes Rocky IV which is empty flag waving personified. Sounds like commie talk.
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Post by Neverending on Dec 10, 2015 0:09:44 GMT -5
Rocky IV isn't just stupid, it's a betrayal of what the series is supposed to be about. Look back at Rocky 1, Apollo Creed shows up draped in the American flag and wearing those silly shorts, but he ends up somewhat humiliated because it's Rocky's quite perseverance rather than Apollo's empty flag waving patriotism that's representative of real American values. Then along comes Rocky IV which is empty flag waving personified. Sounds like commie talk. Canada doubled for Russia.
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